Alleged Shooting Fuels Tensions Between Moscow And Tbilisi

By the way Dough, when you describe the Apsu (Abkhaz separatists) as the "native people", but BOTH Georgians and Apsu are native to the area and have been since before recorded history. On the subject of the rights of indiginous people, I hope you heartily support the return of the entire north american continent (USA & Canada) to the first peoples?

In addition even at this early stage 1931 Georgians were the LARGEST (I should have said this rather than majority) ethnic group in the province, and have been in every census ever taken in the region from Tsarist times.
You state that the Abkhaz were oppressed as part of the Georgian SSR, well I have Abkhaz in-laws (who admittedly supported the Georgian government in the early 1990's) who state the opposite. They tell me that from Kruschevs time onwards that NON abkhaz were oppressed.
The aim of the separatists, in particular the nasty little fascist Ardzinba was not "independance" it was to maintain the soviet union.
The separatists drove out over 70% of the provinces population, consisting of Ethnic Georgians, Abkhaz supporters of the central government, Pontic Greeks, Turkomen, and Russian supporters of the central government.
I agree with you that a vote should be taken, but in order to do that there must be a "right of return" for all refugees from the 1992-1994 war. Only then can you have a true referendum on the final status. This has always been a sticking point with the sepratists. By the way, Both Georgians and Abkhazians are "native" to this province. Both ethnic groups have lived there for over 2000 years.

To Doug McVerry
I suggest you read a book called "conflict in the caucasus" by a RUSSIAN author Svetlana Chersonayva.
She was a head researcher with the Russian Ethnography institute in Moscow, and an eye witness to the fighting in Abkhazia from its beginning.
As she shows in her book, the initial attacks were by Moscow armed separatists against unarmed Georgian and Abkhaz university students in 1989, and the situation deteriorated from there.
The main fighting began in 1992 when Abkhaz separatists attacked the Government buildings in Sukhumi.
Your comment that the Abkhaz spearatists were unarmed at this time beggars belief, and I think you should do some more research on this matter. The separatists were armed and supported by Moscow both prior to and during the conflict up to and including the Black Sea Fleet.
Georgian militia units were sent into Abkhazia in response to separatists attacks on Georgians, Abkhaz who supported the central government, and the ethnic Greeks & Turks too.
Both sides committed crimes, but as HRW and the UN stated, those committed by the Russian backed separatists were on a scale far larger and more horrific than those comitted by the loyalists. See the fall of Gagra and the "Sukhumi massacre" when the separatists took the city in september 1993. You should check this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Abkhazia
Which details Abkhaz crimes and also links to HRW, UN, & OSCE information.
Your sources certainly require some clarification mate,see the following.
Abkhazia, hitherto an autonomous province within the Democratic Republic of Georgia, came under the Soviet control in the course of the Soviet Russian Red Army invasion of February-March 1921. On March 4, 1921, the Red Army, in conjunction with local revolutionary guerrillas, took control of Abkhazia’s capital, Sukhumi, where a provisional Soviet administration – the Abkhaz Revolutionary committee (Revkom) – was established. On March 31, 1921, a special conference attended by Sergo Orjonikidze, Shalva Eliava, Efrem Eshba and Nestor Lakoba, declared the SSR of Abkhazia, but the question of the form of the republic's relations with both Georgia and Russia was left open. On May 21, 1921, the Georgian Revkom welcomed the formation of the "independent Socialist Soviet Republic of Abkhazia", and said the form of relations should be settled by the first Workers' Congresses of both republics.
Finally, on December 16, 1921, Abkhazia signed a special treaty of alliance delegating some of its sovereign powers to the Georgian SSR. The treaty defined Abkhazia’s status as a “contractual republic” (Russian: договорная республика) and established a military, political and financial union between the two Soviet republics, subordinating the SSR of Abkhazia to the Georgian SSR in some of these areas. Thus, through the Georgian SSR, Abkhazia joined the Transcaucasian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic on March 12, 1922 and the Soviet Union on December 30, 1922.
Abkhazia's ambiguous status of a "contractual republic" was written down into that republic’s April 1, 1925 Constitution which specified that "the SSR of Abkhazia, having united with the SSR of Georgia on the basis of a special treaty of union" was, through it, a part of the Transcaucasian SFSR and the USSR. However, the 1924 Soviet Constitution earlier referred to Abkhazia as an autonomous republic.
On February 19, 1931, Abkhazia’s republican status was downgraded
Please note that the Abkhazian region was part of the Georgian Menshevik democratic republic prior to the Russian invasion.
As for your comment that Abkhazia was always subject to direct rule from Tbilisi, please note that it was always (from 1931) an AUTONOMOUS region of Georgia administered from SUKHUMI by local politicians.

I don’t know why anyone would pick on Canada here. Canadians & Americans cooperate in many strategic fields. We purchase a big chunk of our energy from Canada & we provide it with many services & goods it needs. I’m sure though, that I’ve seen Georgia in the list of the countries that are potentially failing but that’s not the point here. It’s so sad how my tax dollars work. The Georgian government lives on my tax dollars, then it spends a portion of my own money to lobby my countries’ corrupt politicians, who in turn, lobby even harder on behalf of the Georgian government & ultimately carve out even more of my tax dollars. I’ve already contacted my congressman & senator to discuss this; we should put an end to this vicious cycle that has been put in place by neocon crooks. USA, but not these neocon crooks, stands for the liberty & self-determination right of people, we are a nation of secessionists & a result of irredentism. All sources indicate that in 1921 Abkhazia was made a treaty Republic of Soviet Union. In 1931, Stalin abolished treaty republic status of Abkhazia & made it an autonomous republic inside the Georgian SSR. Despite its nominal autonomy, Abkhazia was subjected to chauvinistic direct rule from Tbilisi. Despite the fact that Georgian speakers made up only 36% of the population, a minority, the Georgian language was imposed as the official language. The oppression of the native Abkhaz never ended even after Stalin's death & Beria's execution. Georgianization of the Republic intensified. From 1926 to 1989, Georgian population grew from 36% of the total to 46%, while indigenous Abkhaz population decreased from 31% of the total population in 1926, to just under 18% in 1989. However, even in 1989, Georgians did not make up the majority of the population, they were roughly 46% of the total population. The Abkhaz, Armenians, Russians & Greeks made up the non-Georgian majority at 54%. In 1992, Georgia's ruling Military Council abolished the Soviet-era constitution & restored the 1921 Constitution, abolishing Abkhazia’s autonomous status. Georgia dispatched army troops to Abkhazia, ostensibly to restore order. The Abkhaz were unarmed at this time & the Georgian army marched into Sukhum & engaged in massive ethnically based pillage, indiscriminate rapes & outrageous looting. This is exactly when Georgia lost any legal & moral argument it may have had in claiming Abkhazia. Any government that engages in ethnic cleansing & mass looting of a civil population, especially if the oppressed population is a minority, automatically loses the privilege of governing these people. The privilege of governing other people is just that, a privilege. If a government is found unwilling, unable or incapable of providing security for normal life of its citizens, it must be deprived of the privilege to govern them, this is exactly where people’s right to self-determination comes into play. I understand that each case has its special characteristics & in the case of Abkhazia it’s very complicated because the native people are in minority. I’d suggest to work out a deal rather than trying to impose Georgian rule across the republic. Maybe, the Abkhaz would be content by territories north of the Kodori river, then the population residing north of that river, could participate in a vote determining their status as a independent country, as a autonomous part of Georgia or Russia. They should be given the choice, it’s not up to Tbilisi to predetermine what Abhkazia’s fate should be. Nagorno Karabakh is a totally different & unique case, resembling Kosovo in many ways. Armenians are & have always been the majority population of the area. Azerbaijan tried unsuccessfully to ethnically cleanse the area & lost the war. The sides, Karabakhi people, Azerbaijan & Armenia should work out a deal. It’s obvious to everyone that Karabakh would never be returned to Azerbaijan

To Ivo, I am very glad you understood my post, especially the irony about Canada. Thanks for your excellent post.

To Pavol, your comments are also very good. Many Georgians fled to Poland, and served in the Polish military. One of my wife's relatives was a Georgian officer in the polish army who was executed at Katyn. He had fought the Bolsheviks in both Georgia and Poland.

To Jim Goldman. As Ivo pointed out I was not referring to ancient history. Just check the census results for the Abkhazian autonomous region of the Georgian SSR from 1980's and you will see that ethnic Abkhaz made up only 20% of the population, with Ethnic Georgians being the majority ethnic group in the province. So much for as things stood when the USSR collapsed.
Tell me Jim, do you support the ethnic cleansing of the overall majority of the population of a province to allow a small minority to have "self determination"?
That is what the Russians & their sepratist puppets have done to Georgia and Azerbaijan since 1991.

I'm not Andrew, but I think someone failed to detect the obvious irony in the last sentence of Andy's reply. What’s more he was more or less correct, I think, how long will Canada survive if all US businesses pull out of there?

‘Should Western donors stop supporting the government of Georgia, the country is guaranteed to further disintegrate into four more statelets’

That’s a hell of the statement I have to say.

Jack's reply comes across as firstly blaming the victim (or he must have missed RFERL and many others' reports about the start of the war by Russia *and* before the 7th of August) and secondly deliberately misleading, for he implies that Stalin created Georgia's boundaries by giving Abkhazia and South Ossetia to Georgia which appears to be far from the truth, what's more Stalin was more in the traditions of the insane Russian nationalism, no wonder he's extremely popular in Russia today, Russians tend to be traditionally racist against people from the Caucasus so there must be a good reason for his popularity in the Motherland. And the pre-1930s remark does ‘pass the mustard’, because it looks like all Andrew meant was the same I'm saying id est the territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia have been parts of Georgia since ever and not only for the past several decades as Jack seems to imply. Again I'm not him, but I don't think Andrew's saying they (should) belong to Georgia because they have belonged to it some time in the ancient past.

There is another problem: double standards and hypocrisy. I can’t see how West Africa or Somaliland deserve independence less than Kosovo and democratic Spain doesn’t even want to hear about a referendum in the Basque country, OK let them fight ETA but why denying the people their right to say what they want? What’s more saving the Albanians in Kosovo from persecution (it was hardly a ‘genocide’) led to bloodless ethnic cleansing: thousands of Serbs have packed up and left but of course because we’re used to vilifying the Serbs why should we care?! I also don’t have problem with the right of self-determination but this should not come at the expense of hundreds of thousands of people.

Dear Andrew:

I’ve worked in USAID programs in all of southern Caucasus countries for an extended period of time and I’m familiar with these countries, their cultures and problems.
What caught my eyes was the comment you made about Canada, which perhaps sheds light on your inability to think clearly or to analyze simple facts. Canada, by all means, is one the most democratic, successful and progressive countries in the world. Georgia, on the other hand, is an underdeveloped, bankrupt, problematic Asian state in the brinks of failure. Should Western donors stop supporting the government of Georgia, the country is guaranteed to further disintegrate into four more statelets.

Your pre-1930 remark doesn’t pass the mustard and doesn’t mean a thing. To analyze this problem, we should analyze the country/entity that these people lived in, immediately prior to its collapse, which happens to the Soviet Union. We cannot go back to ancient times. With the same analogy, Armenians should be claiming eastern half of Turkey, Syria, Lebanon and Azerbaijan in their entirety because at one point, I believe 100bc they controlled all of above mentioned lands! This analogy is ridicules.

Problems of Ossetia, Abkhazia, Kosovo and Karabakh have to do with two conflicting international rules, the territorial integrity and the people’s right to self-determination. Now, none of these two rules is superior to the other and all cases need to be considered on their own merit.

I agree that there’s big IDP problem associated with Abkhazia, which its current government needs to address. Kosovo and Nagorno Karabkah have the strongest cases for independence. The Georgian government must work with Abkhazia and South Ossetia to work out acceptable deals. If everything else fails, maybe they can think of partitioning Abkhazia and South Ossetia to accommodate Georgian IDPs and to let Abkhazians and Ossetians live their lives on their homeland anyway they wish, there’s no golden rule that says Abkhazians are inferior to Georgians and they must be ruled by Georgians, no one can deprive Abkhazians of their right to self-determination.

Thank you, Mr. Webb,

it is always a pleasure to read a comment from someone who has more than just grasped Georgian modern history.
Implying that Stalin merged the now-disputed regions with Georgia as if thanks to some kind of predilection for his countrymen, is absolutely wrong. Let us remembered that the Menshevik Georgia was literally conquered by the Red Army back in 1922. By the time, Stalin was achitect of Soviet nationlities policy on behalf of the conquerors ruling ideology. If there should be any tempation to regard him as having symphaties for reluctant Caucasian country, I recommend to study the destinies of Communist Georgian leaders - Mdiwani, Macharadze or Lominadze. Btw, Poland of early twenties had very good relations with Tbilisi. Greetings from a young historian

To Jack W.Cohen
I advise you to look back further than the 1930's for the jistory of the Georgian provinces of Abkhazia & South Ossetia. Both provinces were an integral part of the Georgian state from about the bronze age (read Xenophons march for descriptions of western Georgia) to the Bolshevik revolution.
The "Autonomous regions" were carved out of Georgia by the Bolsheviks as punishment in 1922, by Lenin, not Stalin, as punishment for the Georgian state supporting the Mensheviks (social democrats) during the revolution.
A further point. In the 1950's there were NO Ossetian families in Tskhinvali according to census reports, but by the 1990's 40 % of the population was immigrants from North Ossetia.
In addition Georgians ALWAYS formed the largest percentage of the population of Abkhazia. I would be very careful about calling the Georgians "Fascist" and you obviously have very little real understanding of ethnic relations in this small country. My wife is of mixed ancestry, her family has Georgian, Abkhaz, and Ossetian blood, her Abkhaz & Ossetian relatives were driven from their homes (along with more than 1/2 of the ethnic Abkhaz population of the province) by the pro Russian sepratists because they supported the central government.
By the way, Canada is a failed state relying on US protection.

Georgians need to come to the terms with realities on the ground. Saakashvili had no business to jeopardize the safety of Polish president by pushing the envelope, he already knew that Akhalgori is in the no-go zone but just wanted to provoke and he got exactly he was looking for. Saakashvili need to study maps of his own country and learn the Geography of Georgia better, which does not include Akhalgori. Akhalgori is, and has always been, clearly within the boundaries of Georgia’s new neighboring state, South Ossetia.

In the Soviet times, Stalin, another hot-headed Georgian lunatic like Saakashvili, forcibly glued Ossetians, the Abkhaz and Georgians in one of the Soviet Republics. Inter-republic boundaries of the union states did not mean anything during Soviet times and no one was expected that the Soviet Union would one day implode. Due to lack of international understanding of the ethnic issues and arbitrary internal boundaries of the Soviet Union, the implosion turned these meaningless boundaries into God-given non-violable international borders overnight. Abkhazian had never had any intention to be mistreated by fascist nationalists in Tbilisi, nor did Ossetian signed up for it.

Georgians need to recognize these new States and negotiate new borders, that’s the most they can do. Then it could perhaps be possible for Georgians to get control of South Ossetia’s Akhalgori area and Gali district of Abkhazia. There’s no international law that places territorial integrity of a fascist state above other nation’s right to self-determination. Georgians were given the privilege of governing South Ossetia and Abkhazia but they chose to ignore these people’s rights and tried to force them out of their homeland. Georgia should never be given the privilege of governing these countries. As it’s already known, Georgia is a failed state and is surviving on Western donations. Georgians need to turn their focus on their failed state and rebuild it rather than dreaming of governing other people. Get over it, move on.