Thomas Hammarberg: I've seen it on two levels. One is a more long-range development and no doubt there's been an enormous change since the Soviet time here and important steps have been taken to create a real functioning system of justice. It's also clear that all problems are not resolved. The prison system, for instance, is partly appalling still. I visited one prison where they have to sleep in shifts because they were too many in the cells. In a cell for 20-22 people there were more than 60 people present. And the air was very bad. It was extremely warm. The hygienic conditions were not satisfactory.
RFE/RL: Can you compare those conditions with the conditions in the prisons of any other country?
Hammarberg: I've seen quite a number of prisons in many countries. I saw two prisons here. One of the old style -- the bad one -- and one quite modern, a "new prison." And to compare the two was really two worlds. The "bad one" -- the old style -- was one of the worst I've seen. I was particularly appalled by the solitary confinement. I think the conditions must be seen as cruel, inhuman, and degrading punishment, which means that they would not be accepted by the European Court for Human Rights. And I have recommended to all responsible decision makers here that they close that immediately. When it comes to the sort of ordinary cells, I think also that these were also just too bad conditions. Of course, one can say that there aren't resources, we need money for a building, new prisons etc., but the longer it goes on the more responsibility the present government will have for these perpetuating bad conditions. So, I really hope that the changes are made rapidly.
RFE/RL: Apart from the prisons, what are the most negative and the most positive things that come to mind after these meetings?
Hammarberg: I think the most positive is that the pattern of torture, which was here before, where in reality almost everyone arrested got severely beaten up by the police, that is no longer here and that's tremendously important. That does not mean that there are not cases of ill-treatment, or even torture. And in particular, I have reports -- I think credible reports -- about excess violence by the police in situations of arrest and transportation to police stations. So, there are still tasks to undertake in order to wipe out this kind of brutal treatment against people.
RFE/RL: When you say "credible reports," what do you mean? What sources are you referring to, do you mean NGOs, which are actively monitoring the situation in prisons and how police behave with detainees?
Hammarberg: If you can't see [for] yourself then you have to compare different sources. I've talked with the ombudsman, whom I found well equipped when it comes to information, also making his own visits, the nongovernmental organizations, which had different approaches -- some were more political, some were more sort of objective, human rights oriented. But what was striking in this case was that I got more or less the same information from those responsible from the Justice Ministry and from the ruling party parliamentarians. So I'm quite convinced that picture I have confirmed by so many different sources is more or less correct.
RFE/RL: Some international human rights organizations, for instance Human Rights Watch, say that the situation with human rights has worsened after the Rose Revolution. Can you say anything about this kind of evaluation
Hammarberg: Even if I wanted to, I would not be able to make that assessment. But I have one principle -- that I avoid comparisons because situations do change and if you make that type of comparison it will easily be misused for political purposes. My only aim is to do recommendations and assessments, which improve the situation.
RFE/RL: When there's an increase in the number of appeals against the Georgian government in the European Court of Human Rights, does that indicate that the situation is worsening or that there is a raised awareness about this court?
Hammarsberg: That's an interesting question. It could show that there is more awareness of the possibility to complain, it could show that people are no longer afraid of complaining. But it could also show that the situation is not very good. Because there is a substance to those complaints and some which I've seen coming to the court are alarming. There is a clear indication that all problems are not solved yet in Georgia. And I think that's the main message -- one has to continue to work for real justice in society.
RFE/RL: Local NGOs say that they send their information to the Council of Europe, to the UN. Does it reach you, or your office?
Hammarsberg: I understand if people sometimes wonder whether anyone is reading those letters. But they are. I read myself everything that comes. How we organize ourselves when it comes to our office is that we have experts on the various regions and they receive all the letters and they read them. And if they are in a language I don't understand, they organize a translation. So, they are read. We cannot always act on everything but we bring it together to a sort of analysis of the situation. And when we come to the country then they are there in the background and they play a role.