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Will Turkey-Armenia Deal Lead To A Season Of Change In Nagorno-Karabakh?

October 12, 2009
By Brian Whitmore

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WATCH: Born in war and raised in an uneasy peace, an entire generation of young Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh is reaching adulthood and could see its world change yet again. With momentum building for a final settlement that could mean an end to the region's isolation, the author traveled to the enclave and spoke to young people about their views on the conflict and their hopes for the future.

STEPANAKERT/BAKU -- Aleksandr Osipov likes things just the way they are in Nagorno-Karabakh. In fact, he wouldn't change a thing.

Enjoying the autumn sunshine in a well-manicured park in downtown Stepanakert, Osipov, an animated 85-year-old ethnic Armenian pensioner with a thick shock of white hair, dismisses any talk of the breakaway republic ever returning to Azerbaijani rule.

"The people of Karabakh have conclusively decided to be free," Osipov says. "If we are part of Azerbaijan, we will never live freely. We want to live in our republic. We are Armenians and want to live with Armenians."

Aleksandr Osipov
But Osipov's comments come amid a season of change that may dramatically alter the status quo in Nagorno-Karabakh.

The mountainous region, which was the site of a bitter six-year war between Armenia and Azerbaijan, has enjoyed de facto independence since a cease-fire was declared in 1994. But with an Armenian-majority population on the one hand, and legal ties to Azerbaijan on the other, Nagorno-Karabakh's long-term fate is far from settled.

And the issue is once again under the spotlight, following the October 10 signing of an accord reestablishing ties between Armenia and Azerbaijan's historic ally, Turkey.

Ankara severed relations with Yerevan in 1993, in solidarity with Baku over Armenia's occupation of Nagorno-Karabakh. (An unresolved dispute over the World War I-era mass killings of ethnic Armenians by Ottoman Turks has also contributed to historically sour ties.)

Last weekend, after months of coaxing by the international community, the foreign ministers of Turkey and Armenia met in Zurich and signed accords restoring diplomatic ties and opening the countries' border.

There is no formal link between Nagorno-Karabakh and the Turkish-Armenian rapprochement. But analysts say the presence of officials from the United States, Russia, and France -- the three countries that serve as co-chairs to the OSCE Minsk Group, which monitors negotiations on Nagorno-Karabakh -- made the connection implicit.

"The presence of the Minsk Group co-chair countries during the signing ceremony proves that there is a link -- almost a formal link -- between the progress at the Turkey-Armenian rapprochement and progress in the negotiations between Armenia and Azerbaijan," says Baku-based political analyst Ilqar Mammadov. "Armenia has no way to avoid this connection."

The deal was welcomed in the West but has stirred anxieties in more local corners like Nagorno-Karabakh, where residents fear their region's unresolved status may prove to be a chip in a grand bargain between Turkey, Armenia, and Azerbaijan.

Those worries may have intensified on October 11, when Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan stated flatly his country's parliament might refuse to approve the peace accord unless Armenia agrees to withdraw from Nagorno-Karabakh.

A man stands in front of a poster in Stepanakert depicting scenes from the Karabakh war.
The Armenian president, Serzh Sarkisian, dismissed Erdogan's statement as intended for audiences in Turkey and Azerbaijan. Sarkisian confirmed his intention to travel to Turkey on October 14 for a landmark visit to watch a Turkey-Armenia World Cup qualifying match at the invitation of his Turkish counterpart, Abdullah Gul.

And in Nagorno-Karabakh, ordinary citizens like Osipov bristle at the mere suggestion of an Armenian withdrawal, or the return of Azerbaijanis forced to flee during the war.

"If the Azerbaijanis return, they will say they are in charge here, that this is their land, and  that we must leave," Osipov says.

One Toilet For 100 Families


Meanwhile, 350 kilometers away from Stepanakert, in the Azerbaijani capital, Baku, Azeris displaced by the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict have worries of their own.

Nearly 700,000 Azerbaijanis were forced to flee the fighting in Nagorno-Karabakh and the surrounding territories. Fifteen years later, the vast majority of them are still living in unbearable conditions, many in squalid dormitories provided them by the state.

Residents of one ramshackle, Soviet-era building say that as many as eight people are forced to share a single room, that they often go without water and gas, and that more than 100 families share one toilet.

"Nobody would want to live in a single room sharing it with seven other people. Nobody would want to queue up for toilet with 85 people," says Yosuf Abbasov, a lanky 43-year-old who fought in the 1988-94 war before fleeing to Baku.  

"Instead of fighting with each other in this queue for the toilet, it would be better to fight with Armenians to get back our land," he says.

Heyvagul Abbasova escaped the fighting along with her then-infant son
Heyvagul Abbasova, a 43-year-old woman who escaped fighting in Lachin with her son, then an infant, works in a kiosk selling cigarettes, newspapers, and soft drinks outside the dormitory. She weeps softly as she recalls her homeland.

"If I see Karabakh in reality -- not in my dreams, but for real, with my own eyes -- I'm afraid my heart might give out on me," Abbasova says. "If I were told today that our lands were freed, I would run there without anything. I would walk there barefoot. It is always in our dreams."

She says she constantly tells her children that they "have not always been refugees" and once had a home and "a normal life on our own land."

But like many of the displaced,  Abbasova  is skeptical that the latest round of negotiations will result in them returning home.

"We'll always live with the hope that one day we could return to our land. But we don't see any results from the negotiations. For almost 18 years already, they've been telling us that the occupied lands will soon be freed. But there are still no results," she says.

"My 4-month-old son, who left Karabakh in my arms, is now 18 years old and he will join the military service soon. How can I believe in these negotiations?"

Azerbaijani officials had been pushing for Armenia to agree to return five districts surrounding Nagorno-Karabakh and to allow displaced persons to return to their homes as preconditions for Turkey reestablishing diplomatic ties with Yerevan.

But while officials described a meeting between Sarkisian and Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev on October 8 as "constructive," there was no breakthrough ahead of the deal between Yerevan and Ankara.

Azerbaijani officials are clearly nervous about the Armenian-Turkish rapprochement, which deprives Baku of a degree of leverage over Yerevan.

In an interview with RFE/RL, Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry spokesman Elkhan Polukhov described the Turkey-Armenia deal as "completely against the national of interests of Azerbaijan," because it comes without a resolution of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Noting a growing disappointment with Turkey, Polukhov added that energy-rich Azerbaijan has the means and will to defend its interests itself, even if Baku's international allies do not.

Men outside a Baku dormitory for internally displaced persons from Nagorno-Karabakh
"Azerbaijan is not a puppet country that can be manipulated," Polukhov says. "We are a major power in the region. We are an active and irremovable part of many international projects that involve many big powers."

Azerbaijani officials have subtly suggested that Baku's participation in international initiatives like the Nabucco pipeline project, which would transport gas from the Caspian Sea region to Europe, could be in jeopardy if its interests were not taken into account in Nagorno-Karabakh. (In an interview published just ahead of the Zurich signing, Aliyev noted significantly that the price of Azerbaijani gas sold to Turkey had not yet been finalized.)

'We're Speaking About Our Future'

Just as the Armenia-Turkey deal has Azerbaijani officials worried about being left out in the cold, many in Nagorno-Karabakh are concerned that Yerevan may cut a deal over the territory behind their backs.

The Minsk Group is urging Yerevan and Baku to agree to a series of confidence-building measures, known as the Basic Principles, as an interim step before the territory's final status will be discussed.

These include the return of Armenian occupied lands surrounding the territories to Baku's control, an interim status for Nagorno-Karabakh that provides for self-governance, the establishment of an international peacekeeping mission, and the return of tens of thousands of Azerbaijanis displaced by the 1988-94 war.

Azerbaijan has embraced the Basic Principles, while Armenia has remained noncommittal. Officials in Nagorno-Karabakh, who complain that they have no representative in negotiations that will ultimately determine the territory's fate, have rejected the proposal out of hand.

In an interview with RFE/RL, Nagorno-Karabakh's de facto deputy foreign minister, Vardan Barseghian, says the entire peace process, in which Azerbaijan and Armenia negotiate under the auspices of the Minsk Group, needs to be overhauled.

"Karabakh needs to be present at the negotiating table. This current format needs to be reviewed and reset, and the Basic Principles need to be modified," Barseghian says. "We're speaking about our future. We're speaking about the future of this region and the future of these people, who have a desire to live in freedom."

Officials like Barseghian, as well as ordinary people in Nagorno-Karabakh, point out that not only Azerbaijanis were displaced by the 1988-94 war. Some 140,000 Armenians from Azerbaijan were also driven from their homes during the conflict.

Many of them, like Vladimir Agamirov, a feisty 74-year-old, settled in Nagorno-Karabakh. A native of Baku, Agamirov fled to Armenia shortly after the conflict broke out in 1988.

Vladimir Agamirov, a Baku native who now lives in Stepanakert
He eventually settled in Shusha, a former resort town a short drive from Stepanakert, where he is repairing a rundown apartment for his family.

Agamirov says he has fond memories of living with Azerbaijanis before the war and is not opposed to seeing them return to Nagorno-Karabakh now. He adds that it is high time for politicians to finally resolve the protracted conflict over the territory.

"We all need to live in peace. Everybody. All people need to live in peace," Agamirov says emphatically.

"Nobody needs another war. Let them come to an agreement. If the politicians want a war, let them fight it themselves. Neither the Azerbaijanis, the Armenians, nor anybody else needs another war."

Lucine Musayelyan of RFE/RL's Armenian Service contributed to this report in Stepanakert. Ulviyye Asadzade of RFE/RL's Azerbaijani Service contributed to this report from Baku
This forum has been closed.
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Comments page 1 of 2
by: Harold
October 21, 2009 19:17
I agree with Mr John Harduni, Mr. Whitmore, distorts reality.
I have been in Nagorno-Karabakh for a long period of time in 1997 and last year, in 2008. The people of Nagorno-Karabakh are peaceful and want to preserve their freedom and independence . The only way they can achieve this is that the international community recognize Nagorno-Karabakh's independence or the Armenian province's reunification with Armenia. Everybody who is familiar with this subject knows this. Nagorno-Karabakh will never be part of Azerbaijan's totalitarian regime governed by the Aliev dynasty. Unfortunately, Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh are pressured by the big powers who are in a the pursuit of oil and control of Transcaucasia. This article is one consequence of that pursuit.

by: John Harduni from: Reston, VA
October 18, 2009 15:14
BRIAN WHITMORE DISTORTS THE REALITY

The journalist Brian Whitmore is distorting the picture. Very few people in Nagorno Karabakh have any illusions about the true intentions of Azerbaijan - eviction of Armenians from Karabakh, dismemberment of the Republic of Armenia and privatizing Armenian cultural heritage of the region. Azerbaijan is being very frank about these policies - its television and Russian/English-based electronic media sources are broadcasting such threats every day. My friends reached out to those whom Whitmore interviewed and the young people were truly shocked to realize that the journalist took their comments out of context.

by: ryan
October 18, 2009 13:13
If azerbaijan didnt try to wipe armenians out of their country, we wouldnt be in the spot that we are in now.

Azerbaijan claims to be able to take back the lands at any time.. If this was the case, why arent they doing it? Their army is not equipped or staffed for a war like this. they would face extreme pressure from the international community as well.

If azerbaijan claims 'two nations - one state' with their so called turkish brothers, why cant the same principle be applied to karabakh and armenia ?
I guess whats good for turkey and azerbaijan is not good for armenia and karabakh...



by: gayzag from: España
October 18, 2009 11:03
I am really appaled at some comments here by azeris...
They wish to interprete the whole issue only TO THEIR FAVOUR.This is disgusting!!they claim Armenians forced out azeris from Armenia.THEY CONVENTIENTLY FORGET near 300,000 Armenians living im Baki were molested,killed raped and evicted from homes THEY OWNED.No compensations paid to them ,while azeris living Armenia SOLD Their homes in Armenia and left.Do you want me to go on..git a load of this now.
This (before soviert rule)uneducated so called azeris served , as workers and at m ost as head workers in the Baki Oilfields owned by 6 Armenians families.engineers and architects and specialists mainly Armenian..they replaced them by Ukranians(since they were not capable of running oil fields ,refinaries)I am glad Anglo Ams are back there sucking their riches, leaving some crumbs to the upper ruleing class there.
Otherwise, let them go on lying re Khojali..facts are facts.Armenians will fight tooth and nail-yes from Diaspora joining them too,iF THEY GO ON WITH THEIR PERRENIAL WAR CRIES!!!
They either behave like civilized people-after all soviets Russians must have taught them some..or they make war and then enjoy it...
Behave azeris,become civilized,come to grips with realities.Your government is cheating you filling their pockets with oil monies-residues,crumbs that is-
Go grind your oxydated axes elsewhwere.There DEFINITELY ARE SOME AMONGST YOU WHO HAVE OBTAINED SOME EDUCATION AND UNDERSTANDING AND KNOW ABOUT HISTORY.ARMENIANS HAVE LIVED THERE FOR MILLENIA-TRUE ALONGSIDE TATARS, TURKS ,ARABS, EVEN PERSIANS .BUT THEY HAVE BEEN THERE WITH THER 5 MELIKUTYUNS "khamsayi melikis/ PESH DANE MALAK´S UNDERSTAND?
SO DO BE A BIT CLEVER.WARMONGERING WILL BRING YOU NOTHING BUT D I S A S T E R ...
SO HELP US GOD!!!

by: Atilla from: Jeddah
October 17, 2009 12:53
I don't believe in peaceful resolution of the conflict. The ultra-nationlaist Armenians and the warmongering Armenian Diaspora, whose existence and identity is all about the War with Azerbaijan and Turkey, will never allow for the peaceful resolution of the conflict. Another phase of the War is inavoidable. The party which is not ready to the pease is Armenians. Armenians will be ready for the peace, only after successful operations of the Azerbaijani army. Victourous military operations of Azerbaijan are must to bring the ultra-nationalist Armenian community to its knees and to the peace table.

by: Elis from: Seattle, WA
October 17, 2009 05:00
What's missing from the article and from the discussion is a people's right to self-determination, to decide which nation they want to belong to. Even Azerbaijan admits that at the fall of the Soviet Union the majority of the people of Karabakh were Armenian, and they held a vote in which they decide to unite with Armenia. The US has let Puerto Rico vote to decide whether to become an independent nation, become a state or maintain the status quo, and Canada has let Quebec vote on whether to become independent or remain a province. Mature, wise and modern nations allow people whom they govern to democratically vote to leave that nation and do something else. It is, in fact, a human right: The right to self-determination.

Ideally only Karabakh would unite with Armenia and all the surrounding lands, e.g. the Lachin corridor and the area SE of Martuni, would return to Azerbaijan. But this should only happen if Azerbaijan demonstrates that it will not attack the people of Karabakh again. If Azeris didn't want Armenians to take that land surrounding Karabakh, then they shouldn't have attacked Karabakhians and thereby forced them to create & maintain militarily defensible borders.

by: Johnny Be Good from: City Of Angeles
October 15, 2009 01:18
"Before write something you must be sure what you saying (richard, mike)whay do you know about genocide? without knowing history nobody can say about fake Armenian genocide"

First of all, it's what do you know about genocide not whatever the FU%* it is you wrote, secondly my grandparents and the relatives of my brothers and sisters in the Diaspora where subjected to the horror's of what you called "fake Armenian genocide" So I wish the Azeri’s would start another war in Nagorno-Karabakh, because I know the world would see how the Diaspora would reacted. The same way they did in 1991


by: Master V from: USA
October 14, 2009 18:12
This is yet another issue in the world that will always occur with land and people, its just the way it is. There will always be war and there will always be killing, unfortunately its been like this since the beginning of civilization. Be it for Natural resources, such as water and fertile soil or just plain arrogance and pride combined with military might. People are in conflict with each other all the time, neighbors that live side by side, Gang members who claim a territory or an area of turf in their city, countries who claim the land belonged to them first. But hey, Armenia did have a lot more land over 100 years ago then they do now, so what about that. Israel and Palestine which claim it was Palestine before, India and Pakistan with Kashmir. Russia, Georgia, Chechnya, need I go on. We all know atrocities were commited, wheather its the Khodjali and Agdam incidences, or 1915. This is only gonna continue perpetually, pointing fingers at each other, or who started what first. Why dont all of you just leave things the way they currently are and continue living life. The bottom line is "You cant keep everyone happy" Open the Damn borders if you choose, let Karapagh maintain their way of life. No one wants another war, but it doesnt matter what I say or anyone else says, we all know what will eventually happen, I worry that Azerbajian and their increased military spending will find their way fighting and attacking Karapagh in the near future. So now is the waiting game, Good luck and Godspeed you you all.

by: ibrahim from: london
October 14, 2009 16:46
guys from USA. before write something you must be sure what you saying (richard, mike)whay do you know about genocide? without knowing history nobody can say about fake Armenian genocide. If you really interesting about genocide then check the Khodjali genocide which made by armenians against peaceful Azeris. Also what USA did with hindu ,afganistan and Iraq clearly shows about you and your taxs.We are people in Azerbaijan and Armenia dont want war ,but our occupied lands must be freed. so if you dont support occupider country like Armenia then they would not carry on with occupation.Guys from USA if your taxs goes to kill people in Iraq,Afganistan and anywhere else dont be stupids.just react against it. We dont mind if Turkey opens borders because then armenian will all run from Armenia which is they are now doing.They know that if there will be war there will no chance to them at the end.The armenian occupier only survive with your taxs and support americans. Hope peace will come to our countrys.

by: Fariz from: USA
October 14, 2009 14:43
The only solution is to force Armenia to withdraw from the lands of Azerbaijan that Armenia invaded. Azerbaijan's borders are internationally recognized and Armenia should be forced to respect it. Armenians had lived in peace in Azerbaijan before they wanted to separate the country. This is not acceptable. These territories have historically belonged to Azerbaijan and if Armenians moved there and lived for so many centuries this shows how peaceful and hospitable Azerbaijanis are. It is ironic that the only monoethnic country in this region is Armenia. If we talk about the Armenians living in Azerbaijan, they why don't we mention Azerbaijanis who used to live in Armenia? What happened to them? Why were they forced from their lands? Despite of the war, there are 40,000 Armenians living in Azerbaijan yet today.
Armenia is the only hostile coutnry in this area and it is urgent to force Armenia to end its aggression, withdraw from Azerbaijan's lands.
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