Monday, December 22, 2014


Transmission

Hollywood, 'Schwarzenegger' Liven Up Macedonian Political Race

Independent Bitola mayoral candidate Zoran LazarevskiIndependent Bitola mayoral candidate Zoran Lazarevski
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Independent Bitola mayoral candidate Zoran Lazarevski
Independent Bitola mayoral candidate Zoran Lazarevski
A muscle-bound outsider and a former expatriate maker of B-movies are set to duke it out in a mayor's race in southwestern Macedonia that appears to draw more on Hollywood than the city's 2,000-year history for inspiration.

The two colorful independent candidates are among the field in looming local elections in the city of Bitola, according to RFE/RL's Balkan Service.

The city is no stranger to adventure. It has connected the Adriatic coast with the Aegean and the markets of Central Europe since it was founded in the 4th century B.C. by Alexander the Great's father, Phillip II of Macedon. He named a predecessor settlement Heraclea Lyncestis after one of the first action heroes, Hercules.

Fast-forward 2,400 years to today.

Enter bodybuilder Zoran Lazarevski, who's been dubbed "Bitola's Schwarzenegger" after Austrian emigre and Hollywood megastar-turned-California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Lazarevski's not shy when asked about comparisons to the man who popularized bodybuilding internationally before becoming an iconic, big-screen hero and marrying into the Kennedy clan, one of the most storied of American political dynasties.

"Schwarzenegger was an actor and had no [political] experience, and he became governor of California, the richest state in America," Lazarevski tells RFE/RL.

He cites examples from New York, London, Split, and Lyon of former athletes and other noncareer politicians taking on the system. "We're now living in the age of the Internet," Lazarevski says. "There are no lies, so if [people] go on the Internet they'll see."

Lazarevski says he wants to curb the influence of big political parties, and promises to spur an economic revival.

Bitola independent candidate for mayor Jorgo OgnenovskiBitola independent candidate for mayor Jorgo Ognenovski
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Bitola independent candidate for mayor Jorgo Ognenovski
Bitola independent candidate for mayor Jorgo Ognenovski
His independent opponent is a former bit player in Hollywood with martial-arts training, Jorgo Ognenovski. His Tinseltown credits include writing, directing, and acting in "Black Hole," "Stocked," and "Warrior Of Justice," among other projects.

Ognenovski says his foreign contacts and filmmaking experience will reap economic rewards for Bitola.

"I lived for 25 years in America, I have connections with foreign companies, investors, and our immigrants that I can attract to come and invest here," Ognenovski says. "Since I'm a producer, I've made movies out there [and] I have friends from the world of film and plan to draw them here to create a mini moviemaking industry."

According to the movie website IMDB, Ognenovski had a minor role as a "foreign guard" in the 1990 film "Caged Fury," which is described like this:

Discontent leads to a daring escape plan in a women's prison where the inmates are all lingerie clad models and the lesbian warden demands unusual favors for early parole.

We'll have to wait until March to see how both men fare. But don't be surprised to see a Hollywood ending.

-- Andy Heil
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by: Anonymous
February 13, 2013 16:29
Macedonians are the Greeks that still live in the historic region of ancient-Macedon in Northern-Greece. FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs are not one of these!
In Response

by: Macedonian from: Macedonia
February 26, 2013 07:04
Free Macedonia from greek occupation, 100 years of Genocide!!

by: Anonymous
February 13, 2013 21:41
On the basis of their Slavic heritage, FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs automatically exclude themselves from the historical legacy of Macedon. The Kingdom of Macedon was an ancient-Greek Kingdom...only Greeks have principle claim to the historical legacy.

The antiquisation efforts undertaken by the Makedonists in FYRoM, to place them on an equilibrium with Greece over the cultural and hereditary rights to the ancient-Macedonian legacy, has proven to be a bit of an embarrassment for them the country the peoples there, and Slavdom - who's name they used in vain, when they proclaimed Alexander the Great - Aleksandar Veliki, the first Czar of the Slavs.

The general consensus amongst analysts and observers of the long running name dispute issue, is that many International political-representatives, historian-scholars, political-scientists and political-journalists have shown themselves to be more sympathetic towards the Greek positions...when before antiquisation, they supported FYRoM's right to use the Macedonian name for self-Identity and for self-determination purposes.

Things changed when the FYRoM government erected and put on display gigantic statues of Alexander the Great and his father King Phillip at the center of Skopje...sympathy and support for their cause faded and diminished at a stroke. Both of those characters were important powerful figures for Greeks and Hellenism. Their actions had numerous direct and indirect consequences for Greek culture language and traditions, in all of the eras and epochs during the rise of King Phillip until the death of his son Alexander the Great. There is a cultural-linguistic dimension which bonds all Greeks with their legacy - and FYRoM Rubbished that.

There is no valid reason for the Slavs of FYRoM to Idolize King Philip and Alexander the Great the way they do in Skopje, the reason they do it is to antagonize the Greeks, to watch Greeks squirm at their antics...the thrill they derive from watching Greeks get uptight is worth it for them because they know - only Greeks have legitimate claims to the historical legacy of ancient-Macedon.

FYRoM stands alone in the world...shoved-up a siidng, kept at a distance, at arms length, because what they have done to Hellenism has repulsed the EU, UN, USA, NATO and the International academic community - these bodies do not give FYRoM a second look anymore.

by: metoo from: world
February 13, 2013 23:31
to all these trolls on the net that refuse to acknowledge anything about macedonia..you are in fact brain washed macedonians...your dad spoke macy his father spoke macy, his father spoke macy..makes my heart hurt

by: Dimitri from Athens from: Athens, GR
February 14, 2013 20:38
It is really annoying to see that some people confuse Macedonians like Alexander the Great and his father Phillip II of Macedonia, who were Greeks, with the today’s FYROM people who are mostly of Slavic origin.

The fact that Alexander the Great and his father Phillip II claimed to be descendants of Hercules, who was an indisputably Greek hero, is one more proof of their Greek identity.

The more these FYROM guys will insist on distorting history, the more we, the modern Greeks that bear the ancient Greek heritage, shall reveal the truth against their lies until the FYROM propagandists responsible of fooling even their own people, realize that they cannot fool the whole world.
In Response

by: Peter from: Canada
February 15, 2013 14:15
You "Greeks" amaze me,why in the world you want our Macedonian history?.If you had an ounce of ancient Hellenic blood in your body,you would not want the Macedonias ancestry.Macedonians fought the Hellens,Hellens fought against Macedonia.You have no morals,and John Adams one of the founding fathers of the USA in 1783 stated he wanted to see Macedonia as well as Greece independent from the Ottoman rule.Adams then goes on to describe the Greeks as people...230 years later they ate still described in the same way,"corrupted in their morals to such a degree,as to be faithless,perfidious race,destitute of courage..."John Adams statement should cover your fabrications of history.Greece must be charged with genocide against the Macedonian people by the Human Rights.
In Response

by: Dimitri from Athens from: Athens, GR
February 15, 2013 17:15
Macedonian history is part of the Greek history. Since you are not Greeks this is not your history.

The argument that Macedonians were not Greeks because they fought against other Greeks is naïve the less. In most cases ancient Greece was harassed by civil wars and Greeks fought against other Greeks, so this does not make any sense.

John Adams lived some 230 years, as you say, so even if he was a historian, his knowledge compared to the up-to-date historic knowledge was lacking evidence.

Genocide? You’d better stop being fed with the fairy tales the FYROM propagandists urge you to believe as real history dear Peter.

PS. Please try not to be offending (corruption etc).
This shows loose of temper.
I never offended the people living in FYROM and I am sure there are many examples I could use the same way.
Besides this is totaly out of topic. Rgds
In Response

by: Peter from: Canada
February 15, 2013 18:41
Dimitri,each time you make a comment on Macedonia,Macedonians you are offending me.I have told you on number of occasions,I am Macedonian,born in occupied Aegean Macedonia.What John Adams said in 1783 is true today,and here is why;in 1925 at the League of Nations a high ranking Greek representative Vasilis Dendramis in responding to Serbia and Bulgaria on the question of identity and language of the Macedonians,he responded by defending the Macedonian language as being"Neither Bulgarian,nor Serbian but an independent language".He listed various linguists and linguistic maps as evidence to support his claims of the independence of the Macedonian language.The high ranking Greek official representing the Greek State not only recognized the existence of the Macedonian identity,but openly defended and supported it.This is the time Greece did print the Abecedar for the Macedonian school children in Aegean Macedonia.What has changed now than then?.I can tell you what,one part of the divided geographic Macedonia got its independence in 1991,and prior to this date in 1944 Serbia lost the grip over Macedonia.Greece was signing trade deals with the Socialist Republic of Macedonia since 1944.Greece was not bothered then,why now?.Well,Greece is afraid of the Macedonian consciousness spilling over to the occupied Aegean Macedonians,and will not fit their fabricated history that there are no Macedonian identity within Greeces borders.In 1995 former PM Mitsotakis at an interview for the T.Skinalis book"For the Name of Macedonia"he makes it clear,maybe you can read it,should be available since you are in Athens,this way will save me time to repeat it for you his interview.As far as your displeasure on John Adams statement that you find it offensive,I must say,he was 100%right, with no reservations.Just one more item,when the partition of Macedonia begin,Greece declared "the new territory under army administration,it did not say "apolefterose ton kratos mas".This in itself means a lot.King George himself in 1912 confirmed that when the Greek armies occupied Aegean Macedonia the overhelming majority of the population were not Greeks,confirming that the Greeks never lived in Macedonia since the most ancient times(Nikolaides,Melas).The difference you Greeks are trying to iniquity into the minds of the readers is biting your behind.
Dimitri,I don't try to be personal,but you Greeks must understand,if you want to be called"Greeks"by all means do it,I call myself Macedonian because my roots are Macedonian.By the way,Bulgaria never reached Florina (Lerin) to occupy the whole of Macedonia,NEVER!Greek propaganda of us being Bulgarians is a Greek fabrication.Have a nice day.
In Response

by: Dimitri from Athens from: Athens, GR
February 16, 2013 00:40
I am sorry if reality offends; not my intention but I cannot avoid speaking the truth.
Dendramis tried to avoid any pressure from the side of Serbia and/or Bulgaria and keep the Slavophones out of the influence sphere of both neighbouring countries; this is the reason why he spoke so. Don’t confuse policies and history. Yet the idea of creating an “artificial language” was not a purely Greek idea. The special representative of the League of Nations of that time E. Colban had the same idea too although he had some reservations that this would cause attempts of a Macedonian movement following the creation of a distinct Macedonian language.
It must be stated that he was referring to the IMRO.
In 1925 the Bulgarian-controlled IMRO
(Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Committee) called for an “independent Macedonia” only as an initial stage prior to Bulgarian annexation.

Greece was not signing trade deals with the Socialist Republic of Macedonia but with a federal part of a country called Yugoslavia and that’s all; Greece never made any agreement with an independent state called “Macedonia”.

Regarding Mitsotakis we have talked again. As I also told the previous time, the reporter’s name is not T.Skinalis but Theodore Skylakakis and this is not the only wrong point in it.
Mitsotakis made the statement - according to him – under the pressure from various International Organizations that could start the procedures for the creation of a Slavic minority in Greece.
So it has nothing to do with an existing minority but for a minority “due to construction”

Liberated or occupied land?
There are many cases through history where these words interchange with the same meaning however. So this is a minor issue without any specific gravity.

So did King George confirm that “Greeks never lived in Macedonia since the most ancient times”?
Sorry but this is plain silliness. First of all it is impossible that he ever said so, but even if he could have ever said this, he was a King after all; not a historian; historians say that Macedonia was a place inhabited by Greeks since ever (ok not all; yours don’t!)

Bulgaria never reached Florina? The true is that Bulgaria reached much beyond Ohrid up to the Ionian and Adriatic seas, yet it is possible that you are not Bulgarians. May be you are Greeks.
In Response

by: Peter from: Canada
February 16, 2013 12:37
Dimitri,your attempt to tell me that I don't know my own history is wrong.I can surprise you on the Greek history as well,I learned both histories under no political pressure as you have in Greece.In the matter of IMRO,this was an organization dedicated against the Macedonian people by the Bulgarians.As in any political life,people do turn against their own kind as we have Crvenkovski today in the Republic of Macedonia.In Greece is no difference,you had and have people in government who are working for foreign interests.Take for an example Kolokotronis,Manolis Glezos,they both were jailed to appease the occupiers.When King George entered Salonika he did not inform Venizelos.Venizelos found out from the Austrian ambassador that Salonika fall without even a shot, they disliked each other.
Dimitri,your comparison on fighting each other is another myth.Yes,Athens fought other city states,but Alexander by no means was a Hellen.City States were ruled under democracy,while Philips II State was a Monarchy.I believe,you have read the letter of Isocrates to Philip.To me it is very straight forward,same with Demosthenes.On the language spoken,Alexander makes it clear during the Philotas trial in Asia. Quote from Polybius "speakers of same language"with which the Greek fellow wanted to use as proof that Ancient Macedonians spoke the same language as the Ancient Greeks and thus,they must be classed as Greeks".
Now,these same Greeks are burning the candle from the other end and want to argue the point but this time,since it suits their purpose,in the opposite direction;namely that "linguistic criteria are not only insufficient to denote ethnic naunces in the Balkans but they can be misleading".In Ancient times the Greek language was the language of trade, as the English language today.
I have to repeat one very important issue on the difference between Greeks,Bulgarians and Macedonians that do distance the Macedonians from the others."Genetic studies conducted by Oxford University reveal that today's ethnic Macedonians carry only 15.2% of the slav gene,slightly above modern Greeks and Albanians and less than Serbs and Bulgarians.Macedonians have the highest amount of the Mediterranean gene of all European people".Wow! Both the Madrid and Oxford Universities confirm these findings,both very well known Universities won't you say?.
These findings are not based on politics,the Greek thesis is 100% based on politics not science or history.
Dimitri,have a nice day!
In Response

by: Dimitri from Athens from: Athens, GR
February 17, 2013 23:14
Despite the facts I never said that you don’t know history; what I say is that you should not use the history of others. Since you claim that you are not a Greek, then Alexander, Philip and ancient Macedonia cannot be part of your history as they belong to the Greek history.

Was IMRO, an organization dedicated against the Macedonian people by the Bulgarians?
Actually they fought against Greeks and the Serbs.
IMRO was founded in Salonika (Macedonia).
Some of the very active members of it:
Tatarchev born in Resen (FYROM)
Gruev born in Smilevo (FYROM)
Delchev born in Kilkis (Macedonia)
Vlahov born in Kilkis (Macedonia)
Petkov born in Axioupoli (Macedonia)
Aleksandrov born in Novo Selo (FYROM)
Protogerov born in Ohrid (FYROM)
Buneva born in Tetovo (FYROM)
Shatev born in Kratovo (FYROM)
All of them were born to non-Bulgarian territory (while some others where however) and most of them were well educated so they knew well that they could be either Bulgarians or Greeks, yet all of them fought for Bulgaria, in most cases, from start to the end of their life.

Did Delchev and Gruev fight against …Macedonians? Is this the kind of history you are taught?
With the exception of the internal war that broke out within IMRO, they all fought against Greeks and Serbs.

I don’t understand your point about Kolokotronis or Manolis Glezos. Who were the occupiers?
Did King George leave Athens and travelled up to Salonika and Venizelos had no idea about it? Who says so? Where did you read all this? I guess you are probably talking about Prince Constantine I, commander in chief of the Greek Army and successor of the Greek Thorne at that time. It seems that despite your claims you don’t know well the Greek History. Not to blame you; that’s quite natural.

Isocrates’ letter is one out of two (can’t find more) points that raise some questions about the Greek identity of the ancient Macedonians. Yet it is clear that Isocrates expresses through his letter a personal opinion of not much gravity. The fact that the Macedonians participated in the ancient Olympics, around 500 BC, shows triumphantly that they considered themselves to be Greeks. Also the other Greeks considered the Macedonians to be Greeks too (since they allowed them to participate).
Since Alexander and the rest of the ancient Macedonians shared any of their social aspects with the rest of the Greeks (religion, names, cultural aspects etc), they could not be identified anything else but Greeks.
In Response

by: Dimitri from Athens from: Athens, GR
February 17, 2013 23:30
3/3
Regarding Democracy - Monarchy in anc. Gk city-states you are wrong here too (or your sources at least); Ionian cities were ruled under Democracy; Dorian city states were ruled by Kings or Tyrants. Sparta, a typical Dorian city-state, was ruled by Kings. Everybody knows that Macedonians were Dorians, so they followed this rule and thus, this does not make any difference compared to other Greeks.

DNA!
I am sorry to say that all desperate and racists seek their last arguments in DNA; don’t fall in the trap dear Peter!
There are (at least) three DNA researches about the Greek population. One asserts that Greek people have African origin. The other confirms that we are direct descendants of the ancient Greeks and a third that our DNA is closely related to that of the people living in FYROM.
Which one is correct? You may choose one if you wish; personally I don’t give a sh!+ about all this mess.
Full length DNA analyses require a budget of almost a million $ per person!
Suppose that we are not in much need for detailing analyses and the cost could drop down to $ 10.000 or may be at $1.000?
A typical sample of DNA is considered as “sufficient” if it uses the sample of some 1.000 people (only) out of several millions!
As you understand it depends on the elements we want to highlight out of such a research.
Thus it is easy to discover Celts within African populations and dolphins inside the elephants!
DNA? DNA has nothing to do with ethnicity. It is not recommended for national issues but for scientific purposes only (and propaganda).
Yet even if you are indigenous to the area and come from the ancient Macedonians you cannot be related to them as long as you deny their (and your possible) Greek identity.
Ancient Macedonians were Greeks. You cannot establish any link with them since you deny this obvious reality.
Wish you a nice Monday!
In Response

by: Dimitri from Athens from: Athens, GR
February 18, 2013 15:34
2/3
The argument about the language is naïve. Does Polybius say "speakers of same language"? Where? Can you advise of any book, chapter etc?
Do you enjoy Polybius’ Histories?
Also from Polybius Histories Book 9 paragraph 37, 5-8. (Plb. 9.37)
(The Acarnanian representative Lyciscus addressing to the Aitolian Chlaineas during debate before the Lacaedeminians – the three phrases in brackets added by me for convenience):
“I ask you therefore, Cleonicus and Chlaeneas, who were your allies on the former occasion when you invited this people to join you? Were they not all the Greeks? But with whom (meaning the Romans) are you now united, or to what kind of federation are you now inviting this people? (the Lacaedemonians) Is it not to one with the foreigner? … Then you were contending for glory and supremacy with Achaeans and Macedonians, men of kindred blood (the ancient Gk text says OMOFYLOYS = OF THE SAME RACE) with yourselves, and with Philip their leader; now a war of slavery is threatening Greece against men of another race, whom you think to bring against Philip…”
(See the text at the PERSEUS DIGITAL LIBRARY for more convenience: choose Polybius then hit 9.37 at search box. You can find both: prototype text (ancient Greek) and English).
So the speaker considers Aitolians, Achaeans and Macedonians to be of the same race!
Yet neither the Spartans nor the Aitolians objected this! Why? Simply because this was the reality and nobody thought it to be false so to react.
Things are simple! For one more time it is proved (through Polybius this time), that ancient Macedonians were as Greeks as the rest of the Greeks were.
It seems that you mix wrongly Polybius in Philotas trial but the reality is that Polybius has nothing to do with it; On the contrary it’s Quintus Curtius Rufus who gives details about it.
It seems that history is not your strong point.
Here is the English translation from Latin:
The King (Alexander): "'I wish to know whether you will use their native tongue in addressing them.' Philotas replied: 'Besides the Macedonians there are many present who, I think, will more easily understand what I shall say if I use the same language which you have employed.'(Quintus Curtius Rufus 6.9.34-36)
And the original Latin text:
quaero, an patrio sermone sis apud eos usurus.’ Tum Philotas: ‘Praeter Macedonas,’ inquit, ‘plerique adsunt, quos facilius, quae dicam, pereepturos arbitror, si eadem lingua fuero usus, qua tu egisti, non ob aliud, credo, quam ut oratio tua intellegi posset a pluribus.’

So Philotas says it would have been MORE EASILY (= FACILIUS) for others to understand if he would speak in Greek than in Macedonian.
If one speaks a second language, then it is more or less easy for him to understand a speech in this language. But if one cannot speak a language it is neither easy nor difficult to understand any word of a language he cannot speak; it is simply impossible to understand anything.
If the Macedonian language was “other than Greek” then it would have been impossible for the rest of the people there to understand anything.
If it was a Greek dialect however, then they could understand it, although with even some degree of difficulty. So Philotas chose to speak common Greek (Koine) as it was MORE EASILY for the rest of the people there to understand instead of speaking the Macedonian (Greek) dialect.

So this does not make any argument that ancient Macedonian language was not a Greek dialect. On the contrary we realize from this that the Macedonian language was a Greek dialect.

And finally the Pella Curse and the Aiani findings prove triumphantly that ancient Macedonians were Greek speaking people.
In Response

by: Peter from: Canada
February 18, 2013 21:20
Dimitri,When I am talking about IMRO I refer to the Bulgarian vrhovists who did penetrate the organization.The political climat that produced the "Supreme Committee(Vhovists) was created by the Bulgarian State and by the then Prince Ferdinand himself.IMRO was splintered on one side the vrhovists(Bulgarians)and on the other side the Macedonian revolutionaries,just to clarify my previous comment.In 1896 IMRO was determined to clear out the vrhovists who had penetrated the organization,they held a congress in Salonika and drafted the constitution.Keep in mind,the Bulgarian IMRO was totally pro Bulgarian(vrhovists),the IMRO under the Macedonians control were the ones who fought against Bulgaria,Serbia and Greek intervantion,and Ottoman occupation.
The leaders you mention,were not the vrhovists,they were the true Macedonian revolutionaries.
As to the question you put forth on Kolokotronis and Manolis Glezos,the answere is ;Kolokotronis along with his cousin were jailed to appease the Ottomans(I believe it was in 1827)if my memory is right.Kolokotroni laughed in the courtyard,and his cousin asked him "why are you laghing"Kolokotroni answered"I chided them,I am 75 year old,I wont live that long(25 years jail term).On the question of Manolis Glezos,happened during the Nazi occupation.He and his friend then 16 year old,lowered the Swastica from Acropoli ans raised the Greek flag.They both were jailed to appease the occupier.
In the matter of the difference on Liberate and occupy are two different meaning.Liberate to get rid of foreigner who came to your living room and you told him,this is my home,go back from where you came,therefore,I am taking back what you took from me illiegally.Occupier has different meaning.I came to your living room and said to you;you no longer live here,now it is my living room and on top of it,you will do as I say to you.You no longer can decide for your future.This is what happened in 1913 to us the Macedonians,and no thanks to the Serbians,Bulgarians and the Greeks who occupied and took our living rooms.
Dimitri,both the vrhovists of Bulgarian IMRO and the Macedonian Revolutionaries of IMRO did fight against Greece.The difference though was different reasons for the Bulgarians,they wanted to occupy Macedonian territory,and the Macedonian people were fighting to free itself from the Ottomans,Bulgarian,Serbians and Greek invaders.Dimitri,today the Bulgarian President and PM Borisov want to celebrate our heroes together with Macedonia,they even named a town Sandanski.They forget who assassinated Jane Sandanski in 1915,it was the Bulgarians.
I have a question for you;can you write the story of Soufuklis,the navy admiral?I hope I spell it right.Have a nice day.
In Response

by: Peter from: Canada
February 19, 2013 18:51
Dimitraki,you have made exact statement as Polybius.Philotas spoke in Greek at his trial,bur you omit Alexanders request.You cannot pick and chose as it suits you which is a typical Greek way of explaining and falsifying statements.First I will answer you with Polybius;"speakers of same language".Polybius thought that the Ancient Macedonians spoke Ancient Greek,thus they must be classed as Ancient Greeks.But,further it reveals that"linguistic criteria are not only insufficient to denote ethnic naunces in the Balkans but they can be misleading."Renowed Greek linguist and professor Babiniotis recently talked in Australia and said"Ancient Macedonian language was a Greek dialect".He did not mention that the Ancient Macedonians were revolting against him for speaking Ancient Greek language.His army did not speak the Greek language.During the reign of Alexander the Great,the Macedonians spoke their own native language.The question of the use of the Macedonian language was raised by Alexander himself during the trial of Philotas,one of his generals accused of treason.Alexander said to Philotas:"The Macedonians are about to pass judgement upon you;I wish to know whether you will use their native tongue in addressing them."Thereupon Philotas replied:"Besides the Macedonians there are many present who,I think,will more easily understand what I shall say if I use the same language which you have employed,for no other reason,I supose, than in order that your speech might be understood by the greater number."Then Alexander said:"Do you not see how Philotas loathes even the language of his fatherland?For he alone disdains to learn it.But let him by all meand speak in whatever way he desires,provided that you remember that he holds our customs in as much abhorrence as our language."(Quintus Curtius Rufus,History of Alexander the Great of Macedonia,VI.ix.34-36).The trial of Philotas took place in Asia before a multi-ethnic public,which had accepted Greek as their common language.Alexander spoke Macedonian with his conationals,but used Greek in addressing West Asians.Most scholars believe that ancient Macedonian was a separate Indo-European language.Evidence from phonology indicates that the Macedonian language was distinct from Greek and closer to the Thracian and Illyrian languages.We can argue politically till we turn blue,but history must be told without fabricating it.Greece does just that!.Have a nice day,and I do hope Greeces fortune economically will get better soon for the Greek citizens.
In Response

by: Dimitri from Athens from: Athens, GR
February 19, 2013 23:08
MORE EASILY!
This is the key point of the Philotas case and this is why I was focused in this phrase. I did not intend to hide anything as you accuse me; I have provided clearly the sources so that one can easily find all the texts about the Philotas trial, so I don’t understand why you accuse me for “picking and choosing what it suits me and that I falsify statements”.

I have been explaining in detail the case about “more easily”.
Once again:
Philotas says that by speaking Greek it shall be MORE EASILY to be understood than by speaking Macedonian. This shows clearly that Macedonian and Greek speaking were closely related to each other or if it was about two different languages it would not be a case of a more or less easily to understand between people speaking these two languages separately; if Macedonian was a language completely different to the Greek one, then for one who spoke Greek it would have been impossible to understand the one speaking Macedonian.
BUT since Philotas says that by speaking Greek, he can be more easily understood, he clearly implies that by speaking Macedonian he could be understood again but not so easily.
This means that the one, who was speaking Greek, could understand the one speaking Macedonian although not so easily and this in turn leads to the natural conclusion that Macedonian and Greek were not two different but two closely related languages.
Further to this the Aiani findings and the Pella curse not only support this conclusion but also provide the evidence that Macedonian was a Greek dialect.

To be back tomorrow about the rest.
Till then I wish you a nice Wednesday.

PS. I agree that: "linguistic criteria are not only insufficient to denote ethnic naunces in the Balkans but they can be misleading."

by: Anonymous
February 14, 2013 21:48
Since the Peoples Republic of Macedonia was the creation of the Communists, the regime in power during WWII wartime Yugoslavia, the Serbian Orthodox Church refused to recognized the MOC on the basis, the Church of FYRoM remains the only Orthodox Church ever, to have been be set-up by atheist Communists - to this day, it remains unrecognized in Orthodox Christendom.

Now the Bulgarians - on the one hand, Bulgaria recognized FYRoM as the Republic of Macedonia, but on the other hand, they do not see the peoples there being different to them, they see the peoples of FYRoM as Western-Bulgarians.

Now the Greeks - Greece never recognized FYRoM as Macedonia in the first place, from the very beginning, on the basis, Greeks see them as Bulgarians.

Now the Albanians - the fourth neighbor of FYRoM, they recognized FYRoM as Macedonia but see the peoples there as Bulgarians.

Each of FYRoM's neighbours see them as South-Slavs from ethnic-Bulgarian stock, so if their parent-ethnicity is Bulgarian, how can they be ethnic-Macedonians as well!

Ethnicity and it's application in todays modern and complicated world is a very difficult subject to discuss, suffice to say, if the measure of ethnicity was calculated in feelings...then the ancient-Macedonians were fanatic Greeks - wherever they went, they left us their calling-card carved deep into the stones of every city they visited, built or renamed proclaiming their Greekness, as if they knew, that sometime way-off into the future, some Southern Slavs from ethnic-Bulgarian stock would make an attempt, a preemptive strike at taking the Macedonian-name away from it's Hellenic ancestral base.

FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs are not the Macedonians they think they are, told they are, or want to be...on the basis, everybody knows them as South-Slavs from ethnic-Bulgarian stock
In Response

by: Peter from: Canada
February 18, 2013 21:34
My friend,you don't even know what you are talking.Part of Macedonia,todays Republic of Macedonia was under Serb occupation,same as Aegean and Pirin Macedonia occupied by the Bulgars and Greeks.Serbian,Bulgarian and Greek churches claim that the Macedonian church is one of their own.There is no difference in Greece,the Greeks renamed our churches in Greek sounding names,so did rest of our occupiers.I have one suggestion for you,go visit Macedonia,take a look around churches walls,you will see the difference and time of construction of these churches.You might even be surprised to see the carved 16 ray flag from centuries ago.

by: Anonymous
February 15, 2013 14:39
I always found it rather odd that a small Slavic country could make suck outlandish claims in the name of Slavdom.
In Response

by: Peter from: Canada
February 15, 2013 19:12
The country is called Republic of Macedonia,they as we from the Aegean Macedonia speak the same slavic language as many other nations do.The slavic language does not make us"Slavomacedonians".The prefix of slavo is a Greek propaganda.

by: Anonymous
February 15, 2013 17:48
There are a many impediments which restrict the peoples of FYRoM claiming direct or partial descent from the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity,(i) geography,(ii) language,(iii) culture and traditions.

On geography, the Vardar-region of extended [Roman] Macedonia, on which FYRoM sits, in no way correlates with the geography of ancient-Kingdom of Macedon.

On language, the language spoken in FYRoM is Slavic, more similar to Bulgarian than to the Hellenic-language that was spoken by Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity.

On culture and traditions, well they are Slavic, whilst the culture and traditions of ancient-Macedonians were Hellenic.

This is interesting and noteworthy, there are very few impediments and restrictions to equate FYRoM with Paeonia and Dardania - these lands were home to ancient-peoples of the same name. The native indigenous inhabitants of FYRoM constituted Paeonians in the main.

FYRoM's ancient history in the Haemus [Balkan] peninsula correlates more with Paeonians and Dardanians than it does with ancient-Macedonians who's name they covet.

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope... The Greek connection to the ancient-Macedonians transend (i) geography,(ii) language,(iii) culture and traditions. There has been a proven, continuous Greek presence in the historic region of ancient-Macedon from since the days of King Karanus.

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsMiddEa... Dardanians were the ancient-peoples of FYRoM.

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/paeonia... Paeonians were the ancient-peoples of FYRoM.

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope... Macedonians were the ancient-peoples of Greece.

Why do the Slavs of FYRoM covet a name they can't have, a name that is intrinsically linked to the Greeks and Hellenism.

FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs connect more to the Paeonian name and Identity, and the Dardanian name and Identity...these names are more fitting to them than the Macedonian one they are impeded and restricted from having.

by: Anonymous
February 15, 2013 19:43
At all of these levels, geographically, linguistically, historically and culturally - todays Greeks can boast to be the closest related modern-peoples to the ancient ones. The connections transcend biological fraternal ties which bind them to their ancestors. They are as closely related to the ancient-Macedonians as they are to the ancient-Athenians, ancient-Spartans, Corinthians, Thessalians, Ionians and the whole list of Hellenic tribes that constituted the ancient-Hellenic world from antiquity. The path of least resistance flows through the modern Greeks - no other peoples in the Haemus [Balkan] peninsula can boast what the Greeks boast.

FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs embarrass themselves when they tell the world they are more Macedonian than the Greeks...they embarrass Slavdom also, and insult the Greeks and Hellenism in the process.

The Macedonian-name is older than FYRoM's Slavic ancestors arrival to the region. Slavs were newcomers to Macedonia, arriving there at the top-end of the 6th Century AD, almost a millennium after the death of Alexander the Great. Any newcomer that settles an already inhabited region has no relatedness to the pre-existing population there. FYRoM's Slavic ancestors cross-fertilizing [[by force][free will]] with the local population there would still only make them partially-Greek, with partial-Greek rights to their legacy history and heritage.

Slavdom should pull FYRoM to one side and explain to them with whom they are dealing - Hellenism has endured in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula for more than 3 Millenniums. Greek-Hellenic culture has endured Persian excruciations, Celtic invasions, Roman occupation, Hunnic barbarity, Ostro-Gothic treachery, Slavic settlement, Pope inspired crusades, Catholic betrayal and Turkish domination spanning a time continuum of more than 1000 years...Greeks survived to tell the tale. Greeks preserved Hellenism, the Hellenic language and culture into the modern era.

If the Slavs of FYRoM think they can take something from Hellenism, something which never belonged to them in the first place, then truly, they do not know with whom they are dealing.

Greeks reserve the right to defend and protect what is theirs by birthright. Greeks shall defend Hellenism in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula. Greeks shall protect Hellenism, a culture and a way of life that has endured for more than 3 Millenniums.

Long live Hellas, long live the Greek-Hellenic peoples.


by: Anonymous
February 15, 2013 21:43
Why did it take 1,400 years for the Slavs of FYRoM to call themselves Macedonian.

Why did it take that long to adopt the Macedonian-name.

Why do the Slavs of FYRoM call themselves "ethnic-Macedonians" when their parent-ethnicity is Slavic.

Why do the Slavs of FYRoM consider the Slavic label to be a racial slur.

Why do they reject the Greek-Identity of Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity - Why ?

I know Why ?

by: Anonymous
February 15, 2013 22:18
From since it was initially founded far back in ancient times, Macedonian borders were neither fixed nor stable, they were always in flux, changing. The ancient-Kingdom of Macedon differed both in size and shape from the Roman administered Macedonia, and Medieval Macedonia differed from the Byzantine Theme-Macedonia which moved to Thrace. Ottoman Vilayet-Macedonia changed again until in 1913, the Greeks ejected the Turks from the region and returned Macedonia back to Greek hands. The geography of Greek Macedonia today resembles that of the ancient-Kingdom of Macedon during the rule of King Phillip II, it mirrors the descriptions of Strabo the ancient-geographer when he wrote his Book VII Fragments.

[link to penelope.uchicago.edu] If I have proven anything at all here, it is this - it's not about the geography but about the name. The name went wherever the Greeks took it.

When the Byzantine-Greeks moved Macedonia to Thrace, they didn't move the turf of the original ancient-Kingdom there - they moved the name there instead...a decision proven to be light-years ahead of it's time because they showed us a fine example of proof of ownership! You know when a name is yours when you take it with you wherever you go. The New World in the Americas is full of people-names and place-names that were transplanted there from the Old-World. Nobody confuses French-Names with Dutch-Names or mistakes Spanish-Names for German-Names or mixes English-Names with Portuguese-Names.

The Macedonian-name originated under Hellenic skies from Greek speaking peoples using a Centum Indo-European, Hellenic-language - No mistake, No confusion...just fact!
In Response

by: Peter from: Canada
February 19, 2013 14:53
You are right on on the names.Does Kostur,Lerin ,Solun,Voden,Ovcharani,Zelevo,Psodery,Bouf,German,Nivici sound Greek?(Salonika,Edessa,Melitis,Antartikon,Pisoderi,Boufy,Agios Germanos,Psaras)these are the names you Greeks re-named into Greek sounding.If these cities,towns were Greek,why do they have different names?.Former Greek ambassador to the Republic of Macedonia sent a protest note to the Foreign Ministry of Macedonia stating"foreign visitors are confused,they don't know in which country they are because people in this area look alike,eat,drink the same way as in Northern Greece.")I think she got confused.Those in Northern Greece are same people as the ones in Macedonia.You can draw borders,but you cannot separate peoples ethnicity,language and culture.It seams to me,you are also confused as her.Before this ambassador,there was ambassador Grossomanidou in Macedonia who said to Bekoyani FM of Greece to recognize the constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia.Bekoyani sacked her for that comment.Further to your comment,Macedonia did not originate from Hellenic skies,Macedonia existed before Hellas ever existed.The same thing with Alexanders Empire you claim was Greek.How in the World can a "sklavomenos"becomes the ruler?.One of you Greeks made a comment"The Macedonians in Northern Greece are the true ancient Macedonians,not the ones in Skopje".Well,I have news for you,the Macedonians in Aegean,Pirin and Republic of Macedonia are one and the same people by ethnicity,culture and language.There is absolutely no Greek blood in the Macedonian vanes.Tell me,how many Hellenic generals out of 72 were Hellens in Alexanders army,just name one if you can.Was Pithos a Hellen who killed 23,000 durring the City States uprising against the Macedonian rule,or the 18,000 Alexander killed in Asia?.Why he did not kill any Macedonians?.I know,you are able to fabricate history,I am well aware of your superiority in fabricating history,you even proved it with the EU.
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