Friday, May 25, 2012


Commentary

Is There A Foundation For Peace Between Russia And Georgia?

Moscow will not talk to Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili.
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By Ghia Nodia
The director of the Moscow Carnegie Center, Dmitri Trenin, recently published his proposal for a peace agreement between Russia and Georgia. According to his article, a logical (and possible) solution to the standoff consists of two parts.

First, Georgia should recognize Abkhazia's independence in exchange for the return of the Gali district (which is almost entirely populated by ethnic Georgians).

Second, Russia should withdraw from South Ossetia in exchange for some sort of intermediate status for that region between independence and Georgian control, with a special security role for Russia.

The obstacle to this plan, according to Trenin, is Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili -- first, because he is bad and, second, because Russian leaders Vladimir Putin and Dmitry Medvedev have sworn not to negotiate with him and they are not going to go back on their word. But if Saakashvili leaves office in 2013 and does not become prime minister, then such a solution could be possible.

Theoretically, all this is possible. If one proceeds from the idea that returning Abkhazia and South Ossetia to Georgia is impossible (because Russia will never allow it and because the people who live there don't want it), then compared to the present situation, such a solution would be better for Georgia. It is all quite rational.

So what's the problem? Is it just Saakashvili?

It is obvious, but true, that in order to reach a peace settlement, all sides have to really want to. It has to be the top priority for everyone, particularly if reaching an agreement means makes painful concessions. It is hard for me to imagine any Georgian leader who could survive politically after making such a decision. The alternative would have to be very bad and the dividends would have to be enormous.

Under what circumstances would the parties want to make such serious concessions?

An anonymous commentator posting a comment on Trenin's "The Moscow Times" article asked a good question: "What do we need peace with Georgia for anyway? Why should we give South Ossetia back?"

And it's true that it would be extremely illogical for the Russia that invaded Georgia in August 2008 to endorse Trenin's plan. The basic idea of the war was the conviction that the West is Russia's enemy and Georgia is a Trojan horse in Russia's backyard. Georgia and its foreign protectors had to be taught a lesson and shown who is the boss in the "near abroad."

Two Russias

They didn't quite manage to get this lesson across, since Saakashvili is still in power and continues to stubbornly pursue his policies. So what is the point of making life easier for him by normalizing relations? The worse things are for (a pro-Western) Georgia, the better they are for Russia.

Trenin, working for an American center in Moscow and writing in an English-language newspaper in the capital, is proceeding from a different view of Russia. The Russia that Trenin imagines (as do some Western analysts and politicians) might be provisionally called "Medvedev's Russia" (as opposed to the real "Putin's Russia"). This Russia, on the one hand, has not rejected its claims to great-power status (which in practice means demanding a privileged role in, at the least, the "near abroad").

But, on the other hand, this Russia has ceased to consider the West an enemy and, on the contrary, wants to establish a "modernization alliance" with it. No one knows exactly what this means, but the practical implication for the West is clear: It must strengthen Medvedev -- or, at the least, it must not do anything to weaken him. This Russia won't become a democracy but at least it will be more rational and predictable. It will be a Russia one can do business with. Such a Russia really does need to improve relations with Georgia (of course, after "Crazy Misha" leaves office) in order to remove the most serious source of disagreement with the West.

As far as Georgia is concerned, of course it is better to have good relations with Russia than bad ones. But the practical question is this: What concrete concessions would have to be made in order to "buy" better relations with Russia (the Russia that really exists, not the one that is imagined by Russian and Western Medvedevites), and what concrete dividends can Tbilisi hope to receive?

In order even to begin thinking about possible solutions, one must first imagine a Russia that is capable of genuinely recognizing Georgia's right to choose its own government and its own political course. But no such Russia is anywhere in sight. The very fact that Moscow refuses to talk to Saakashvili proves that Moscow believes Georgians do not have the right to choose their own government.

That is why projects like Trenin's are only theoretically interesting. Today's Russia and today's Georgia have no need for them.

Ghia Nodia is professor of politics at Ilia State University. The views expressed in this commentary are his own and do not necessarily reflect those of RFE/RL
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by: Vakhtang from: Moscow
August 31, 2010 14:13
I can't imagine how this kind of man (mr.trenin) working at Moscow Carnegie Center.
It will be better for everyone if he was a street-sweeper,
Recognize abkhazia it's all the same that recognize right of bandits to kill and rob

Here the other proposal for a peace agreement
_______________________________________
Georgia agrees on Russia presence in abkhazia ///
russian troops
russian military bases
russian military police russian administration
russian polise + international observers

All abkhazian gang formations must be disarmed
All IDPs must to return to their houses
All abkhazes must to return where they lived before (cabins,caves,pits)
low on private property in abkhazia = international low on private property
Georgia takes off it's clams to Russia and Russia recognize abkhazia as part of Georgia but under protection of Russia.
In Response

by: Anzor from: Maykop, Adygeya
September 01, 2010 07:13
I can imagine how this kind of man (mr. vakhtang) living in Moscow. Are you member of Neo Nazi groups? I can imagine that you can easily....

There is a famous Georgian fable to tell their kids: "There is separatist country ruled by separatist government and there are separatist children drinking separatist milk and separatist old people in the streets and they drive separatist car. Everything could be Ok with them and they could look like us but there is one thing that distinguish them from us - they are separatists, they are not people so we have to kill them all".

It seems your parents told you same fable.

Can you give guarantee that Georgian nationalistic policy will allow any Abkhazian in Abkhazia? When i read your comment i can say that NO! Georgian nationalistic policy will not allow any Abkhazian in Abkhazia. They will finish Giya Karkarashvili's poject. To kill all Abkhazians. There is no need to experiment with this because all non-Georgian population perfectly remembers the past. For Georgians there is a country called Georgia their motherland where they may live but Abkhaz have no other home.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 01, 2010 11:02
Actually Anzor, most Georgians I know want peace and prosperity for all ethnic groups in the country, be they Kartvelians, Mingrelians, Adjarians, Gurians, Svanetians, Azeri, Jews, Turks, Armenians or Apsua.

As to the killing, well the vast overwhelming majority of killing of innocent civilians was done by Apsua separatists (who were only 17% of the population of Abkhazia at the time), as documented by international observers who were appalled at the nature of Apsua ethnic cleansing.

And as to who started the killing, well look no further than the fascist Ardzinba, and the massacre of unarmed Georgian teachers and students at Sokhumi university in 1989.
In Response

by: Vakhtang from: Moscow
September 01, 2010 11:55
To anzor maykop adygeya.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adygs??
Not those adygs that together with abkhazes-sevegers taken part in mass killings of georgian woman and children?

As for my parents,sure I was driving my car when you daddy was crawling under the table.

Next.
_________________
If you belive that georgians must to live only in Georgia,so it mean that adygs must to live only in maykop and in villages around,

I don't ask you about private property, because this meaning not for adygs who together with abkhazes occupied georgians houses beforehand murdered or driven away woman and children who lived there.

As about neo nazi group they all children from kindergarten in comparison with wild abkhaz-adyg gangs who did fight against peaceful people.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
September 01, 2010 14:27
Most Georgians want peace? Lets see Georgia's offical views. What they really want.

Georgian Defense Ministry TV quotes Hitler
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBQZkYOyHjY

“We once and for all must understand that we will never be able to regain the lost territory with prayers, which have become a formality, nor with hopes in the League of Nations, but with the strength of our weapons. Adolf Hitler. 1932.”

Oh, such a peaceful. Hitler and Stalin (aka Jugashvili) proud of you. I am sure you also both of them. How lovely!

by: Andor_1 from: USA
August 31, 2010 20:28
"Russia that invaded Georgia in August 2008 "
As Hoja Nasreddin said, "You can say the word "Bakhlava" thousand times, but you won't have sweets in your mouth.
The author can repeat his lie about the "invasion" 'til he's blue in the face, but the fact remains: under the cover of darkness the Georgian Army shelled the sleeping (as they claim, THEIR OWN CITIZEN) and killed several Russian peacekeepers appointed by the International Commission.
That's the fact.
The author's statement is fiction.
As for peace between Russia and Georgia, it will come in due time. When Georgian wines will start rotting in the cellars due to the low demand, and when Georgia finally realizes that friendly attitude is the only way to deal with the neighbors. Until Saakashvili learns not to insult Russians, saying that Georgian wine is too good for them, and they, the Russians, will drink any swill, there is not a person in Russia that will welcome him to his or her house. Just wait your 2 million tourists without Russian participation ))) We take our money to Cyprus, Egypt, Emirates, Turkey, or Europe. One more vote AGAINST Saakashvili.
In Response

by: J from: US
September 01, 2010 23:57
A propos Georgian wine: I have tried several kinds. It is passable, of course, in the same way Bulgarian or Hungarian wine is. But nothing special, to be sure

by: Ness from: NYC
August 31, 2010 21:38
What's the foundation for peace between US and Iran?
same story with Russia and Georgia: yes, Russia will not talk to a lunatic in charge - who is a mere reflection of Georgian society: small but proud nation for no reason and nothing to be really proud of, but thanks to the over-inflated egos stroked during the USSR times. Georgians should have been treated as Britain and Europe treated their colonies: as vassals - then the respect and knowing its (small) place in the world would have ensued. Instead, communists promoted all those ethnic minorities - a well known facts - and now Russians are ripping the benefits of that policy. Yes, I agree with the main conclusion of the article - there is no foundation for the peace between Russian and Georgia and there will not be any peace until Georgia recognizes they are not the center of the world civilization and until their egos are not extinguished by Russia's simply ignoring them and promoting its own interest strongly, consistently, and forcefully if needed.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 01, 2010 08:25
Well Ness, I can see that your are probably just the typical Russian bigot.

Having been to Georgia on quite a few occasions, and also to Russia, I feel the Georgians have far more to be proud of than Russians.

After all, they have an amazing culture, are hospitable to the extreme, friendly, welcoming, and highly intelligent people who are working hard to overcome the destructive effects of over 200 years of Russian occupation.

With regards to your asinine comment "but thanks to the over-inflated egos stroked during the USSR times", so tell me, how did the Russians "stroke their egos", was it by trying to destroy their culture through the repulsive process of Russification? By reducing Georgia's population by over 1/3 from 1921 to 1945? By blowing up thousands of ancient Churches (the Georgians were Christians for 600 years BEFORE Russians stopped practicing human sacrifice), by making the biggest contribution per capita in the USSR to defeating the Nazi inavders, and by suffering the highest losses per capita?
By trying to ban Georgian from public institutions in 1978? By deporting Georgians to Siberia?

By the way, I think you need to look at how Russia really treated its vassals. The UK has good relations with almost all its former vassal states from Ireland to India, from South Africa to New Zealand.

Meanwhile Russia is loathed for the horrific crimes it committed, both in the Tsarist and Communist, and now neo-fascist periods of its history.
In Response

by: anonymous from: vassal-land
September 01, 2010 17:25
Andrew from A: "The UK has good relations with almost all its former vassal states from Ireland to India, from South Africa to New Zealand." Really? Are you sure you are from the same planet as the rest of us? Ireland? India? Africa (South and other parts)? Middle East? Far East? N. Zealand maybe, but just because you guys got Australia to loathe. The fact the UK´s former vassals and the UK don´t call each other ugly names in each other´s face does not mean good relations, just better manners, something Crazy Misha does not seem to have in sufficient supply.
In Response

by: BS Buster
September 01, 2010 18:33
Andrew is the typical Russia hating bigot.

BTW, an ethnic Georgian representing Russia lost to Nadal last night at the US Open. There's at least one other top rated ethnic Georgian who represents Russia in tennis.

A poll referenced by RFE/RL finds that Georgians prefer Russians over any other group.

Neocon. neolib and plain Russia hating foreign policy advocacy is a toxic poison.
In Response

by: BS Buster
September 01, 2010 18:38
Contrary to what Andrew says, numoerous peoples of former British colonies don't have such a high opinion of the British legacy.

In my last set of submitted comments, I noted an RFE/RL cited poll on how Georgians prefer Russians over any other group. In addition, Ossetians and Abkhaz prefer Russia over Goergia. In another part of the former USSR, more Ukrainians favor an EU like relationship with Russia than with the EU.

So much for Andrew's rabid Russia hating drivel.
In Response

by: anon
September 01, 2010 18:58
Churchill banned grain exports to India (pop 400m) to feed England (pop 40m), while England played only a supporting role in the war (not reaching the European continent until 1944). The Indian army faced down the Japanese Empire in SE Asia while Churchill decided they would not have enough to eat.

Russians lost the most churches, mostly under direction of Stalin and Lenin who were not Russian. But you clearly try to separate these into petty nationalist squabbles.

Besides, your arguments are only good if you are planning to pack up your belongings and leave NZ to the Maoris. After all, it resembles nothing of its pre-British occupation past.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 02, 2010 07:54
Sorry anon, but Britain did not export food at all during the 20th century, being a massive importer of food at the time.

The Indian army was actually 1/3 British, each division had 3 brigades each of which had 2 Indian and one British battalion.

Lenin not Russian, absolute rubbish, unless you are implying that having one Jewish grandparent makes him "not Russian".

As for Stalin, born in Gori to an Ossetian father and a Georgian Russian mother, he never made any secret of his preference for Russian culture, being described by Lenin as "The great Russian chauvinist".

He is however greatly respected in Russia, particularly by the youth of Russia, and was recently voted 3rd greatest Russian of all time.

In Response

by: anon
September 02, 2010 12:29
I never said Britain was an exporter. I said he banned exports, which means he banned exports from other parts of the empire from going to India. Three million people in Bengal died after Churchill put their food security far below Britain's.

Lenin was German, Jewish, Kalmyk, Russian, Swedish, among other things.

Stalin had churches destroyed, among them Kazan Cathedral (Today's cathedral is just a replica.) He tried to erase St. Basil's many times, but an architect kept stalling, and paid for it in a trip to the Gulag. Stalin barely spoke Russian, and Russian nationalists were all executed by the Bolsheviks.
In Response

by: BS Buster
September 02, 2010 12:58
Contrary to Andrew, Russians have more to be proud of than he suggests. This shows in the number of Georgians who embrace Russia rather than vice-versa.

Andrew distorts the degree of Stalin's popularity in Russia. A not so scientifically conducted Russian poll placed Stalin a weak third with under 12% support. In Russia, there was considerable opposition for a planned exhibit of Stalin bill boards during the past Victory Day holiday in Russia. As a result of this opposition, the bill boards were withdrawn.

FYI, in Italy, Mussolini has polled between 5% and 10% in support. This despite his being on the losing side during WW II.

In Response

by: Winston Churcill
September 02, 2010 13:12
"In 1981, [Amartya] Sen published Poverty and Famines: An Essay on Entitlement and Deprivation (1981), a book in which he demonstrated that famine occurs not only from a lack of food, but from inequalities built into mechanisms for distributing food. Sen's interest in famine stemmed from personal experience. As a nine-year-old boy, he witnessed the Bengal famine of 1943, in which three million people perished. This staggering loss of life was unnecessary, Sen later concluded. He presents data that there was an adequate food supply in Bengal at the time, but particular groups of people including rural landless labourers and urban service providers like haircutters did not have the monetary means to acquire food as its price rose rapidly due to factors that include British military acquisition, panic buying, hoarding, and price gouging, all connected to the war in the region. In Poverty and Famines, Sen revealed that in many cases of famine, food supplies were not significantly reduced. In Bengal, for example, food production, while down on the previous year, was higher than in previous non-famine years. Thus, Sen points to a number of social and economic factors, such as declining wages, unemployment, rising food prices, and poor food-distribution systems. These issues led to starvation among certain groups in society."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amartya_Sen

by: Manana from: USA
August 31, 2010 22:22
Did Mr. Trenin live in Abkhazia? Was he born there? Was he kicked out from his own house under gun? Did he loose his loved ones? Well, I am sure the answer is NO, so coming up with such senseless resolutions makes me wonder how the Hell he represents such well recognized institution??
Well, Mr. Trenin, Georgians are better off without Russians and we are standing behind our President!

by: bugs from: la cave
September 01, 2010 01:24
Um sure, providing those french helicopter boats work well enough to support their troops for a eh em eh sooo we tawded visit

by: Misa from: behind my computer
September 01, 2010 01:39
My apologizes for using a word "hate" but I really hate statements at the end of this article: "The views expressed in this commentary are his own and do not necessarily reflect those of RFE/RL", because that is exactly the view of the RFE the people and organizations that finance RFE. You guys just hate Russians and Serbians. So many times I asked myself why. I wish one day somebody from your organization would write an article titled: "Why Radio Free Europe hates Russian and Serbians" and I am dead serious.
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
September 01, 2010 11:12
Misa you are a magic man. I have never seen anyone typing from behind of his computer..
Anyway I think that no one at RFERL hates Russians and Serbians since I think people from both nations are RFERL correspondents. I cannot speak behalf of RFERL but what I read here are the articles pointing at some elements of last forms of dictatures in Europe that are still present in countries such as Russia, Belarus and also in Republika Srpska of BiH. I read frequently articles on this web but I am not aware on anti Serbian ones. I personaly am an admirer of a new Serbian government in Srbija.
In Response

by: BS Buster
September 01, 2010 18:40
Misa is right.

Keep in mind that every group has their version of a Quisling in one form or anotherr.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 01, 2010 11:30
Well, all the crimes against humanity committed by the Russian state over the last 100 years or so just might have something to do with it.

You know, gulags, invading Georgia 1921, Poland, Ukraine, Azerbaijan all in the 20's, invading Finland 1939, invading the Baltic republics, aiding Hitler in invading Poland in 1939. Supplying Hitlers war machine.

Spreading the virus of communisim that was responsible for around 144,000,000 deaths due to gulags, mass murders, and political and cultural repression from 1917 to 1991 worldwide, for invading Hungary in 56, for invading Czechoslovakia in 68, for crushing the Chechens by deportation in 1944, for killing hundereds of thousands of Chechens in the 90's and right up till today, for aiding a violently racist ethnic minority (Apsua) to expel the majority of the population (Georgians, Greeks, Jews, and also Russians) from Abkhazia in 1992-94, for just being a plain bunch of violent, racist, and lawless idiots who bow down before neo-nazi's like Putin.

There, does that help?
In Response

by: BS Buster
September 01, 2010 18:43
More Russia hating distortions from the rabid Russia hating bigot.

In 1919, Poland attacked former Rusisan Empire territory where Poles either didn't exist or were in the minority. Prior to that, Poland had a history of aggression against Russia.

Contrary to what Andrew suggests, many Communists weren't Russian.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 02, 2010 06:03
What distortions BS spouter, the typical genocidal Russo-Serb bigot that you are you would know more about distorting history than anyone else.

Sorry whacko, but the territory that Poland claimed in 1919 was populated by ethnic poles, and had been for centuries, and only became part of "Russian Imperial territories" due to the carve up of Poland between Prussia and Russia.

Now, do you deny that Russia was an ally of Nazi Germany in 1939, that it invaded without just cause or reason Georgia in 1921, the Baltic republics, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, the central asian states, and inflicted massive, and I mean massive, suffering on those people?

I mean we all know you are a Russo-Serbo apologist, who spouts hate and bigotry at all no Russian republics of the former USSR, and against the non Serbian parts of the former Yugoslav republic but come on.

As for the poll you mention , well maybe they asked Georgians living in Russia (who would answer that way out of fear as a general rule, remember the deportations of a couple of years ago), but in my experience the Russian state is loathed.

And for good reason.

In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 02, 2010 07:33
As to "many communists weren't Russian" true.

But the overwhelming majority of them were.

And even those who were from ethnic minorities like Stalin almost invariably put the interests of Russia first.

There is a reason Stalin is disliked in Georgia, but all too popular in Russia, being voted 3rd greatest Russian of all time, with odes to him in the Moscow metro, and over 300 statues and monuments to him still existing in Russian towns, with 16 new ones since Putin came to power.
In Response

by: anon
September 02, 2010 12:49
Andrew, such frothing-at-the-mouth hatred. You must be a child.
In Response

by: BS Buster
September 02, 2010 13:12
Andrew

Your bringing up Serb suggests a bigotry on your part against certain cultures sharing similar attributes.

The "whacko" (as you put it) is yourself who denies (a soft way of saying lies) about Poland taking territory where Poles were in a minority.

This land grab was akin to how Poland had acted centuries earlier.

On your other points:

- Molotov-Ribbentrop was for good measure influenced by the West's selling out of Czechoslovakia to the Nazis instaed of pursuing an alliance with the USSR.

- Non-Russian areas of the USSR had their own ethnic Communists who went along with Soviet objectives.

- Your own stated experiences match your convoluted views.

In Response

by: Davor from: Behind Misa
September 01, 2010 18:24
Misa God bless you! Wright on the money my man. I have exactly the same impression. And Mr. Rasto, saying that Misa statement is not true just because you have some Russians and Serbians reporters is so ridicules. But Misa do not worry my friend, let them believe that people is buying they cheep propaganda and that common people around the world believe that west is always write and east is wrong ... God bless Misa
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
September 02, 2010 11:14
Dear Davorko

I have not used word "not true" once. All I have wrote about are my perceptions and these are that in Countries such as Belarus and Russia there are elements of dictatoprship and no democracy. People are spared based rights to vote and are taught blindly follow some artificially made leadres. It is nothing just softer version of Communism that I had personally experienced for 20 years. Since you are probably Serbian ( judging according to your name) you have experienced ( if) than much softer version of Communism than in other countries of Warsaw Pact. As my comments about Serbs I consider current government of Republika Srpska nothing else just followers of Milosevic policy.

by: Albert from: Germany
September 01, 2010 06:55
@Vakhtang, thanks for show us an example of Georgian ultra-nationalism. Your words no different from Gamsakhurdia. Do you believe that Georgians and Abkhazians can live together when Georgians are have such a hatred?

Yes, you must stop to carrying Stalin's Work Forward.

@Manana, perhaps you should answer this question: who invaded Abkhazia on 14 August 1992? Do you think only Georgians are lost their loved ones?

Well, Ms. Manana, Abkhazians are better off without Georgians and they are standing with their President!

You must ask to Shevardnadze who started the war. Or do you think like Gamsakhurdia? Georgia for the Georgians?

Georgian ultra-nationalism a danger for Georgian. New Gamsakhurdias growing in the country. This is a great danger but you can not see this.

In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 01, 2010 11:09
Thats nice Albert, Ardzinba the racist and mass murdering leader of the Apsua separatists was demanding "Abkhazia for Abkhazians" as early as 1979.

With regards to Gamsakhurdia, for all his faults he was one of the architects of the deal that gave the Apsu (17% of the population) control of 50% of the seats in the Abkhazian legislature while Georgians (47% of the population) only got 35%.

As for who started the killing, well considering that Apsua terrorists massacred unarmed Georgian students and staff at the Sokhumi university in 1989, I would say the Apsua.

Try reading the account of Svetlana Chervonnaya (who was an eye witness to events) called "Conflict in the Caucasus - Georgia, Abkhazia, and the Russian Shadow".

This woman was sent from the institute of Ethnography in Moscow to write a pro separatist account, and as she herself says, what she wrote was a damning account of the separatist war crimes.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
September 01, 2010 14:15
Hey Andrew, it's nice to see you. As i see you are still continue your absurd claims and propogandas. As i said before; you are just waste of time but i can't stop myself now.

Please show us your source about ''Abkhazia for Abkhazians'' claim.

Here is my source Gamsakhurdia and its supporters' famous slogan: ''Georgia for the Georgians'' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBk-lwFXqV8 [1.28. second]

And tell us please. Are you comdemn this? Say us that this is Georgian nationalism and i comdemn this. Show us your peaceful side - if you have...

Secondly: According to data from the 1886 census, there were a mere 515 Georgians living there (alongside 3,558 Mingrelians), the 30,640 Samurzaqanoans (essentially denizens of what later became the Gal District) being categorized as Abkhazians. Do you know how Georgians became majority in Abkhazia? Could you tell us?

I strongly recommend you read ''Ethno-demographic history of Abkhazia, 1886 - 1989'', by Daniel Müller.
http://www.abkhazworld.com/abkhazia/history/52

1882, the Georgian newspaper ‘Shroma’ considered Georgian acquisition of land in Abkhazia and Circassia as ‘one of the most wonderful events’ in the life of the Georgian nation ['Shroma', 1882, No: 15 (in Georgian)].

And about Svetlana Chervonnaya. Let me add an excerpt from George Hewitt's ''Post-war Developments in the Georgian-Abkhazian Dispute'' [Parliamentary Human Rights Group, 1996, Section 3: Propoganda] ''...As a final example of black Georgian propaganda we can cite the case of Svetlana Chervonnaya, a specialist from Moscow on Tatar affairs, who, for reasons best known to herself, chose to write a pro-Georgian, anti-Abkhazian book entitled, in the English version, 'Conflict in the Caucasus'. Let's pick out just one comment: on page 196 the author denies that the threat by the then-commander of the Kartvelian forces in Abkhazia, Gia Qarqarashvili, to wipe out all 97,000 Abkhazians was ever made, saying: "The outright exaggeration of Qarqarashvili's statement [...] is easily revealed if this text [from Nart, 2nd Sept 1992] is compared with what he actually said on TV.' Not only does anyone who has seen the TV-statement know that the threat was indeed made, but the Georgian newspaper '7 Days' printed it in Georgian translation of the Russian original in issue 31 (4-10th Sept 1992), and so the nature of Chervonnaya's deceit is plain for all to see, but how many of those receiving the no doubt free copy of this English version on their 'fact-finding' missions to Tbilisi will have this pointed out to them or take the trouble to check for themselves all the other 'facts' assembled here? As an excellent indication of the standard of scholarship in Georgia, it should be noted that Madame Chervonnaya was awarded an Honorary Doctorate by Tbilisi University in April 1996...'' http://www.circassianworld.com/postwar.html#5-3

As i told you. Your lies can't save you. Again waste of time but.... Anyway, maybe next time i will read your comment and i will laugh...Only..
In Response

by: BS Buster
September 01, 2010 18:45
Metin

He reflects a dumber version of how some others think.

Either way, it's bunk.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 02, 2010 07:42
Hi Metin,

I definitely condemn "Georgia for Georgians" when it involves racism.

However, the 1886 census lists Samurzaqanoans as Samurzaqanoans, not as Apsu.

You also forget to mention that in the 1700's the Moslem Apsu had assisted the Ottomans in committing mass ethnic cleansing of the Christian portion of the Abkhaz population, which resulted in the expulsion of large numbers of Georgians.

Explain to me once again Metin, how come all the Churches, some dating to the 4th century, in Abkhazia were built by Georgians, filled with Georgian inscriptions, with Georgian frescoes and Icons showing both Georgians and Apsu got there?

Did they magically fall from the sky?

And what about the Greeks and Romans, they describe Dioscuras/Sokhumi as a Svanetian city, no mention of the Apsu in their accounts.

Show us your peaceful side and admit that the Georgians have just as much right to live in Abkhazia as the Apsu.

Of course, if you support the oppression of the residents of Gali, then you are nothing but a small minded bigot.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
September 02, 2010 13:15
Dear Andrew,

You didn't surprised me of course. You can be a good politician. Could you tell me please "Georgia for Georgians" is not involde racism? Oh no, it's not because ''Georgians are angel. They are the choosen people of God'', right? It's really useless to discuss with the people like you. For you 2 + 2 = 5.

And also please show us source for your absurd claims and please try to find ''real historians.'' You understand very well what i mean.

Churchs in Abkhazia? Please see this link: http://www.abkhazian-churches.ru/

Apsu... Apsu... Apsu... First of all it's NOT Apsu but APSUA. Please tell us why you use this term. Tell us that you believe Pavle Ingoroqva's absurd thesis. ''He was commissioned to argue in print that the Abkhazians only arrived in Abkhazia in the 17th century, conquering the 'original' Abkhazians of history, who were thus a 'Georgian' tribe.'' You believe this absurd thesis right? Oh Georgian nationalism. Stalin and Hitler proud of you.

Georgians have right to live in Abkhazia. ONLY after they RECOGNIZE Abkhazia as an independent state. And the same right for return should be given also to descendants of Abkhazian refugees from the Caucasian War of the 19. century, who live mostly in Turkey.

How is this peaceful side?
In Response

by: Albert from: Bonn
September 02, 2010 16:16
Andrew, why the Abkhazia's name is Abkhazia? This is absolutely not concerning Georgia. Is this name magically fall from the sky?
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 03, 2010 05:00
Now Metin, I have already stated the reason why I use the term Apsu & Apsua is because they are your own self designation, the same as I use the terms such as Sioux, Cherokee, etc for those who are often called "American Indians".

Abkhazia is a Georgian word by the way.

However Metin, one more thing, I in no way agrre with the absurd theory that Apsua Abkhazians only arrived in the 17th century.

It is just as ridiculous as the absurd theory that Georgians only arrived there in the 19th.

The historical record shows both ethnic groups have lived there for thousands of years.

I have said this before Metin, and you know it.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 03, 2010 05:17
From your own link.

"The transition from the early Middle Ages to the developed Abkhaz Kingdom is gradually turning into the Abkhaz-Georgian feudal state, the final formation of which falls at the end of X century. Changing face of monumental structures and Abkhazia and, above all, churches: among other changes, they lose and the Byzantine grannost apse, which takes a rectangular outer plan in accordance with the traditions of the East Georgian temple architecture."

Well looky here, the Abkhaz-Georgian feudal state, the Church designs following the traditions of the east Georgian temple architecture.

Thanks for the confirmation of a unified Apsua-Kartvelian medieval state by the way Metin, cheers!
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 03, 2010 05:22
And more

"Temple of Ilory
In the eastern outskirts of Ochamchira Town in the Ilory village there is a functioning ancient and white stoned temple of Ilory patronized by St. George. This temple has its one hall available with an inner semicircular altar. The principal premises with stone arched vault are supported by massive abutments projected from the walls and illuminated through five windows. The outer walls' masonry includes several plates depicting carved cross. The temple stands out among such churches' halls of Abkhazia by its elaborated architectural forms and artistic and construction methods approved in the first half of the II century A.D. Its massive proportions, slim volumes and usage of technical solutions dictated by the conditions of disposition should bring it together with general architecture forms of the ancient Georgia .

A folk legend says about some reasons for constructing the Ilory temple in such manner as follows: «A certain local prince hunted and wounded the deer in the forest. The animal concealed in the bushes when the hunter was persecuting it by footsteps towards the wreck of an ancient shrine. The prince saw how the stricken deer laid its head onto holy table with the tallest cross in the altar and realized that this deer had been patronized by St. George himself. So the prince has abandoned its victim ordering to erect a temple in honor of this saint on site».

As evidenced by Archangelo Lamberti, the Italian missionary visited the Ilory temple in the first half of the seventeenth century and Castell, another Italian Catholic missionary long since the Middle Ages close to the temple of Ilory some large fairs were arranged and many residents of the Abejoy Abkhazia and other regions of the West Georgia brought its agricultural products and handicraftsmen's goods there. Such a vivid scene of lively market near the Ilory temple is seen on the Castell's drawing.

Under the Turkish yoke the temple of Ilory as well as many other Abkhazian churches suffered severely from fire hazard. In the middle of the nineteenth century it was repaired and covered with iron when its outer and inner walls were plastered preserving some inscriptions in “asomtavruli” script and reliefs of the temple facade. Some ecclesiastic has survived in the temple.

In the twentieth century the temple of Ilory was the main pilgrimage center of the residents of the West Georgia and Abkhazia and nowadays it continues to exist and to operate in the same manner as well."

Well well well, conforms with the architecture of ancient Georgia, Asomtavruli script, thanks for the confirmation of Georgian culture in ancient Abkhazia Metin, well done!
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
September 03, 2010 07:32
Dear Andrew,

Congratulations that you don't believe Pavle Ignoroqva's absurd theory.

What i said before, remember? Abkhazia was part of a united Georgia ONLY in the Middle Ages, when it united with Georgian speaking lands by right of dynastic inheritance. And your example say this: ''"The transition from the early Middle Ages to the developed Abkhaz Kingdom is gradually turning into the Abkhaz-Georgian feudal state, the final formation of which falls at the end of X century.'' See, it's very clear!

And about ''Abkhazia''. An excerpt: For example, the term "Abkhaz(ia)"' is stated to derive from the Georgian /apxaz(eti)/. But what if it does? The traditional view, which is the only tenable one, is that the Georgian terms themselves derive from the Ancient Greek /Abasgoi/ ("Abazgians") or /Abasgia/ ("Abazgia"), which in turn were adaptations of the local ethnonym /Abaza/ (in this connection, see my own "The Valid and Non-valid Application of Philology to History" [Revue des Etudes Géorgiennes et Caucasiennes 6-7, 1993, pp 247-264], for a rebuttal of Tamaz Gamqrelidze's tendentious attempt to make the Georgian terms the originals).

In similar fashion the name of northern Abkhazia's most famous resort, Pitsunda, derives from the accusative-case form of Ancient Greek's designation for the spot, namely /pityounta/ (from the nominative /pityous, "place of pines"). This also lies behind the Georgian toponym /bich'vinta/, whereas the Abkhazians have long had their own name for it, namely /A.mza.ra/ ("the place of pines") (for the etymology, see my article "On the etymology of Bich'vinta (Pitsunda)" [Revue des Etudes Géorgiennes et Caucasiennes, 6-7, 1993, pp 205-209).

In any event, Kartvelians (my suggested superordinate to refer globally to the Georgian, Mingrelian, Svan and Laz peoples) should be rather careful about drawing hasty conclusions based on the source of the most widely used name for this or that people/country/place. After all, the very term "Georgia" (in Russian, Gruzija; in French, Géorgie; in German, Gruzien; in Turkish, Gürcistan, and so on) has nothing whatsoever to do with the Georgians' self-designation for their land (viz. /sakartvelo/).

What would the word "Georgia" suggest about the people's origin? The old name for today's eastern Georgia (Iberia/Iveria) is most plausibly explained as deriving from the Old Armenian phrase /i Virs/ ("to the Georgians"). So the genitive plural case of this Armenian ethnonym - seen in the expression /i Vrats/("among the Georgians") - produced in Persian by way of a transformation of the troublesome (to Persians) consonant-complex /vr/ the term /gordzh/, which in turn gave Turkish /gürc/, which then Italian visitors/merchants duly transposed to fit their own language's requirements, producing a toponym homophonous with the English term. Hence the above (partial) array of names for "Georgia" - from which, it should again be emphasised, no conclusions at all can be drawn about the settlement or original ownership of the territory in question. http://www.abkhazworld.com/articles/analysis/278

My pleasure.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 03, 2010 11:28
By the way, George Hewitt is routinely dismissed in his arguments against Chervonnaya by historians, the UN, and pretty much everyone else due to his obvious bias, being married to an Abkhaz woman and living in Sokhumi.

Reinventing Blame: George Hewitt on the First Abkhaz War

Michael Cecire
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

A few things jump out at me. First, Hewitt’s implication that Abkhazians were somehow passive parties in the ethnic cleansing that occurred against Georgians is something I’m quite sure his own research could not even bear out, whatever the biases. Also, the presentation of facts which conveys the rather irresponsible idea that Abkhazians had no real part in the joining of hostilities until after those imperialistic Georgians marched on Gali is about as laughably reductionist as a Pravda cheat sheet. Militant nationalism happens, and Georgia was certainly trapped in its thralls (to which I think Georgia requires greater self-reflection, to be sure), but no marginally objective researcher would imply with a straight face that the Abkhaz side was blameless. Just as the Georgians were mustered by a desire for national unity, Abkhazians sought to ‘reclaim’ their (Soviet-drawn) borders from a population against which they were the minority. How that demographic balance came to be is, and is always, a matter of conjecture, but it was the reality of the day. Abkhazia cannot reject some Soviet demarcations while using others as a basis for their nationhood.

In many ways, the notion of Abkhazian nationhood is itself a highly fluid concept too, given the extensive admixture that has occurred in the region and, as Mr. Hewitt must concede, the shifting definitions by external observers. This reality renders his own eye rolling about Georgianness to be somewhat flaccid.

I’m also troubled by his apparent unwillingness to more directly address the role of Russian secret services and North Caucasus irregulars in the conflict. Even if we assume that his premise is in some ways correct (which I do not), that Georgian nationalists facilitated (or, ‘created’) the cleansing of Georgians, a gaping hole in the narrative remains. Obviously, Georgian forces were pushed out by some other party and Georgian civilians were not entirely cleansed until this expulsion was for the most part complete.

The defeat of Georgian forces by ‘Abkhazian’ forces largely composed of Moscow-raised North Caucasus units from Ingushetia, Daghestan and Chechnya also tells a different story. Not necessarily of Moscow’s interests in destabilization – although that too, which is also pushed aside by Hewitt far too readily – but of a conflict that cannot be explained merely by a legacy of Georgian suzerainty/oppression over Abkhazia when the true historical universe involves a multitude of competing groups, interests, and geopolitical trajectories throughout the Eurasian space.

It’s true that bias happens. But what I’m seeing here isn’t just bias but full-blown revisionism based on an extremely narrow and selective view of history. The conflict was, and will never be, just about Abkhazia vs. Georgia. A much older, larger system is at play that revolves mainly around the Caucasus being a historical buffer for Russia against the designs of other neighboring powers. And while the constituent nations of the Caucasus have all played their various roles in this Westphalian tug-o-war, the finality by which George Hewitt closes the door on the Georgia-Secessionist conflicts as being ‘Georgia’s fault’ betrays a desire to fix the narrative as a bilateral issue between Georgia and Abkhazia.

And therein lays Hewitt’s chief weakness. He succumbs to the same inclinations that he and his allies accuse supporters of Georgia of doing – first framing the issue as one of little vs. big and cherry picking the facts from there.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
September 03, 2010 11:29
By the way, you answer me. What about ''Georgia for the Georgians'' slogan? Is it not involve racism?
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 03, 2010 11:29
I suspect that the factual history is a tale of mutual atrocity and much shared blame. But it all exists against a backdrop of certain international norms that favor Georgia’s position. Specifically, Abkhazia was and has been a recognized part of Georgia. And Georgia’s attempt to retake it, however poorly conceived or executed, fell within Tbilisi’s sovereign right. And Russia’s (‘unofficial’) intervention served to not only compound the violence, but was an attack on a newly-sovereign Georgia. After the disintegration of the Soviet Union there were many national independence movements (including in Javakheti) throughout the FSU, but the only ones which marginally succeeded were those somehow supported by Russia. This is not a coincidence to brush away with academic disdain, but a real pattern that affected real people with real consequences.

Hewitt’s exemplifies the most disturbing and deceptive type of analysis. We can laugh at Russia Today’s faux Euro News-dressed propaganda, but it is from credible, knowledgeable scholars that orient their perspective based on selected portions of history that stands to discredit Georgian statehood the most. While these are the most challenging to which to respond, they are also the most important.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
September 03, 2010 13:30
Dear Andrew,

When somebody refer to George Hewit, the people like YOU say this: George Hewitt married to an Abkhaz woman. (Btw, he is NOT living in Sukhum)

Could you tell me what's wrong with that? Please explain, what's wrong? Abkhaz President Sergey Bagapsh's wife is Georgian. Saakashvili's wife is Dutch. And what? I see no problem with that. But the people like you, this is a problem. Such a poor mind!

Hewitt is answer all your claims here: http://www.abkhazworld.com/articles/analysis/278

I wish you happiness with the Stalin's illegal borders. Of course in your dreams.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 03, 2010 18:42
Now Metin, if you are really so keen to erase "Stalins borders" you would be better off giving Khodori back to Svanetia, and Gali to Mingrelia.

That is the most amazing thing about people like you, is the hypocrisy.

Why do you cling so hard to Gali, when the population is Georgian, and has been for centuries?

Why don't you let them be part of Georgia?

Oh thats right, you are mini imperialists and racist hypocrites.

And also they actually now how to work as farmers, thats where all your food comes from.

Metin, you are a joke, not a funny one, but a joke none the less.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
September 04, 2010 10:35
Dear Andrew,

AGAIN -- I strongly recommend you read Daniel Müller's ''Ethno-demographic history of Abkhazia, 1886 - 1989''. http://www.abkhazworld.com/abkhazia/history/263-muller-demographia.html

All the answers there -- for your ABSURD questions.
In Response

by: Vakhtang from: Moscow
September 01, 2010 12:44
To Albert from Germany.
I get you dude.Are you mean that abkhazes don't want to live together with georgians.

This is from the same 'opera'- your neighbour Maria Ivanovna don't wanna to live next to you,then you must go.

There is the low it don't care if you want or not.
If there is no low like in abkhazia today, that's the other matter

We can see today as well that the motto "abkhazia for abkhazes" more truthful then "Georgia for georgians"

I'm dout that you know that in Soviet times abkhazes couldn't to live with georgians as well,so it was quartered in abkhazia special so-called 8-regiment and everybody knew that for ethnic hate he can move towards Siberia.

by: Independent observer from: above
September 01, 2010 14:14
Interesting discussions here, I see (and Andrew from Australia, you may wish to wipe your computer, you are spitting hatred). It seems that small(er) and/or less important countries always seem to resent their overpowering neighbours, be it N. Zeland and Australia; Scotland and England; Canada and US; Holland and Germany; Georgia and Russia. Maye it is an inferiority complex, or maybe it´s a crude PR strategy, aptly articulated by a Russian writer, Ivan Krylov (a propos, Andrew, Russia also has an amazing culture, do visit a library some time): a mops must be strong if she barks up an elephant.

Just one idle question, though, Georgians seem to remember and resent injustices of the Soviet regime more than anything. But wasn´t Stalin (Dzhugashvili, ethnic Georgian), who left the worst legacy in Russia´s history, by exterminating a lot of ethnic groups, by de facto enslaving the population, by flirting with Nazis, etc. etc.?
In Response

by: Geoffrey from: Tbilisi
September 01, 2010 22:21
Dear Independent observer,
Whatever Stali (Jughashvili) may have done, are you sure he did it for Georgia? If you could think just for a second, he didn't. Don't you know tht he is much more popular in Russia than in Georgia?
In Response

by: Anzor from: Maykop, Adygeya
September 02, 2010 09:13
In the period 1922—1930 Abkhazia enjoyed the status of a union republic associated with but not subordinate to Georgia. In 1931 Stalin changed Abkhazia's status. He incorporated Abkhazia into his native Georgia. And then tens of thousands of Georgians were resettled in Abkhazia, Abkhaz schools were closed, the Abkhaz language and alphabet suppressed. You can find lots of information about Stalin period, just google.

It was the best gift for Georgia. Don't you think so? Georgia and their backers carrying Stalin's work forward.

Stalin would be proud.
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
September 02, 2010 11:30
Anzor, Metin whoever you are hiding under 5 nicknames I am not getting you, Abkhaz had itheir faculties and universities wher ethey were edicated in Abkhazian language, they had variety of cultural and academic institutions well developed and manged when being autonomous part of Georgia. That obviously you cannot mention. Never in history of Abkhazian nation Abkhazinas had that many opportunities for developing their language culture and art as in 70 ties in USSR as a part of Georgian SSR. Unfortunatelly in every nation ther are some lunatics who believe that 150 000 people nation can exist as an fully independent and economically viable functional state with all responsibilities.
Of course you cannot mention that Stalin when lost as a communist and bolshevik in elections in Georgia in fled to Russia where he got his bolshevik formation and than attacked and annexed georgia that was hardly punsihed during his leadersip of USSRand mainly in WWII. You cannot mention that Stalin acted against Beija when he went out of control against Abkhazians. All you are programmed to do is to spread hatred against Georgians on these fora. That is your life mission.
So good luck than
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
September 02, 2010 13:32
Dear Rasto,

5 nicknames. Oh did you count this? Anzor one of them, what are others? Once you said that i am a Russian [Btw, i am a Circassian]. Your usual claims, as usual... No worry, there is no something to hiding. I am here. If you like i can also give you my email.

First of all you should accept that Stalin changed Abkhazia's status. This is a fact which you don't want to see. Anzor already mentioned others facts. Georgianizations of Abkhazians etc... We are talking about Stalin-Beria period not 1970s... But let me give you an example from ''Absence of Will'' documentary film. Yes, it's my favorite. [http://vimeo.com/8826939]

[15:40 sec.] Guram Odisharia: I remember when I was still a boy, the Abkhaz would gather on Lenin Square in the centre of Sukhumi to discuss the demographic situation. They wanted to have their own Abkhaz language, television channel and their own university. The kind of things any nation, large or small, should have.

Reporter: What were ordinary people saying and how was it all being reported in the media?

Guram Odishaira: We Georgians told the Abkhaz that they were a minority and they shouldn’t forget that they only made up 17% of the population. One famous Georgian poet wrote that you could actually fit all the Abkhaz into two football stadiums. It was outrageous!

So, Boris. You can understand the mentality from this excerpt.

Why don't you try to read? You can start to read from Rachel Clogg's ''Documents from the KGB archive in Sukhum. Abkhazia in the Stalin years''
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a782001741

No worry, Rachel is not my ''6. nick.'' Really, i am not Rachel!

By the way, Ghia Nodia, author of this article wrote so: ''According to many accounts, "Georgia for the Georgians" was Gamsakhurdia's slogan, though this in fact is not true - I personally never saw this kind of slogan at his rallies, nor have I seen anybody quoting any source on this - but it probably did express his true attitude. It is easy to find plenty of downright racist quotations from the Georgian press of that period. The difference here, however, is that at least Georgian nationalists could refer to the democratic legitimacy of majority rule in this case, which the Abkhaz could not.‘''
http://poli.vub.ac.be/publi/Georgians/chp0202.html

Mr. Nodia, it's my pleasure to show you this slogan. [in YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBk-lwFXqV8 (1.28 sec.)]
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
September 02, 2010 14:09
Oh, how many name i've used. Rasto, Boris... But i forgot to say Andrew. Too many names, one mind. It's doesn't matter, right? Enjoy...
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
September 04, 2010 22:49
Metin
I never said you are Russian. My understaning is that you are Circassian, and that I wrote after reading webs such as Circassian world, where I saw your contributions under at least 2 nicknames. That's why my suspicion here :)

In Response

by: Boris from: London
September 06, 2010 10:10
Metin,

I seems to me that you have nothing else to do, but being glued to the computer and write lengthy stupid comments. And I can iamgine, you must be active on some other forums too. How do you support your family?
But, prbably the truth is that you are apid agent, who ar many on RFERL. KGB pays special attention to blogosphere, as this is only remianing media space not under their direct control. It makes them really nervous. Internet (and open borders) is about only thing that may make russians wake up and see that king is actually naked... then the Rubliovka will burn, not the other forsets.
In Response

by: J from: US
September 01, 2010 22:40
Yep, that's exactly right.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 02, 2010 11:54
Well IO, you need a geography lesson mate.

Auckland is in the North Island of New Zealand, not part of Australia.

Considering all the work I have done with refugees from the Caucasus, I find little attractive about Russian political culture.

As to Stalin, born in Gori, to an Ossetian father and Russo-Georgian mother.
His last name Jugula is an ossetian name with a Georgian suffix.

Have a look on any Ossetian website and you will see him listed as the "Great Ossetian man"

Furthermore he is widely revered today in Russia as the 3rd greatest Russian of all time, hero defender of the motherland, and described by Lenin as the "Great Russian chauvinist"

Young Russians, particularly the Nashi brigades have a very high opinion of him, while today in Georgia he is mostly remembered with disgust.

By the way, prior to the 1931 constitutional change Abkhazia and Georgia were linked together as treaty republics:

"Creation

Abkhazia, hitherto an autonomous province within the Democratic Republic of Georgia, came under the Soviet control in the course of the Soviet Russian Red Army invasion of February-March 1921. On March 4, 1921, the Red Army, in conjunction with local revolutionary guerrillas, took control of Abkhazia’s capital, Sukhumi, where a provisional Soviet administration – the Abkhaz Revolutionary committee (Revkom) – was established. On March 31, 1921, a special conference attended by Sergo Orjonikidze, Shalva Eliava, Efrem Eshba and Nestor Lakoba, declared the SSR of Abkhazia, but the question of the form of the republic's relations with both Georgia and Russia was left open. On May 21, 1921, the Georgian Revkom welcomed the formation of the "independent Socialist Soviet Republic of Abkhazia", and said the form of relations should be settled by the first Workers' Congresses of both republics.


Finally, on December 16, 1921, Abkhazia signed a special treaty of alliance delegating some of its sovereign powers to the Georgian SSR. The treaty defined Abkhazia’s status as a “contractual republic” (Russian: договорная республика) and established a military, political and financial union between the two Soviet republics, subordinating the SSR of Abkhazia to the Georgian SSR in some of these areas. Thus, through the Georgian SSR, Abkhazia joined the Transcaucasian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic on March 12, 1922 and the Soviet Union on December 30, 1922.

Abkhazia's ambiguous status of a "contractual republic" was written down into that republic’s April 1, 1925 Constitution which specified that "the SSR of Abkhazia, having united with the SSR of Georgia on the basis of a special treaty of union" was, through it, a part of the Transcaucasian SFSR and the USSR.[7] However, the 1924 Soviet Constitution earlier referred to Abkhazia as an autonomous republic.[8]
On February 19, 1931, Abkhazia’s republican status was downgraded, on the orders of Joseph Stalin, to that of an Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic within the Georgian SSR, reputedly as punishment of the Abkhaz Communist leadership under Nestor Lakoba for their failure to overcome the peasants' resistance to collectivization"
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
September 02, 2010 12:06
To Independent observer.
I always say what the poor nation those Russians are. They could not owerwhelm one South Caucasian. All of the Russians, Jews, Armeninas, Ukrainians and all bolsheviks are pure as a morning lillies. All dirt has been done by Stalin alone who himself was massacring, sentencing, deporting shooting, hanging millions of poor good Russians with his own empty hands. All other poors were just watching and shivering in fear unable to stop him. All Communistic politbyro of USSR with zakonnye vory and KGB were apparently one assembly of saints. You looks bit like one fish shy of a full string.

by: Asuta from: Sukhum
September 01, 2010 16:49
Why Georgians are so worrying for Trenin article ?
No one in Abkhazia is supposing to go on such a compromise like to give them Gal region/I am sure neither the Ossetians will even get his proposals into their heads.
In Response

by: Vakhtang from: Moscow
September 02, 2010 03:56
I wonder asuta, what people feel when they living in occupied georgian houses were woman and children were killed.

ossetians,ossetians....
Do you mean those who travel in Europe to slaughter poor Swiss?

What one can say-"good" company:
abkhazes-murderers of woman and children
ossetians- who wanna to slaughter people around
adygs-who wanna to live like a caveman in prehistoric times

And one more...
you abkhazes deciding nothing,everything depends from mr.Putin and his mood,always remember about it,

In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
September 02, 2010 13:47
''Dear'' Vakhtang,

Please visit our cave. Me and my family will be happy to see you in our cave. Oh, Great Vakhtang, the choosen people's representative wisit us. Such a honour! Incredible...

I already prepared a gift for you. Handmade stone tie -- Dobce Gabbanu.

When you eat you can remember us. We love you great Vakhtang...
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
September 02, 2010 14:37
Strategically speaking I think Abkhaz leaders may well decide to sede Gali district to Georgia anyway. I think that 50 000 Georgians in Gali can be a bit of the problem for Abkhaz governmnet if they receive voting rights. And they would have to at some point.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
September 03, 2010 13:36
If you have to learn about Georgian ultra-nationalism -- just read Vakhtang's comments. He is an excellent example of Georgian fascism.

by: Dacks from: Wellington
September 01, 2010 21:13
Andrew from Auckland, I have never read more ridiculous and uneducated comments regarding the Abkhazian struggle against Georgian oppression than from you, even the never ending comments from Konstantin at least have humor to them if anything (even if unintentional). Seriously, where did you read/learn about this? You claim to have been to Georgia and Russia, may I ask how and why? And have you ever been to Abkhazia? And you realize as well that those reports are incredibly biased and this has been acknowledged by many groups? For shame. Don't write about things that you know little to nothing about. leave the debate to the big boys.
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
September 02, 2010 11:33
Dacks from Wellington whose comments are reminding me very much language of Metin from Ankara. Could you be more specific with what claim of Andrew you do have a problem ? I was in Abkhazia namely in Sukhumi in 1987 on holidays, in case you want to ask.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
September 02, 2010 14:21
Dear Rasto,

Dacks is my 34. nick and Wellingtong is my 56. home.

You and ''your friends'' are hopeless case. But i love you, really. You make me smile always. Someday lets meet in King's road. I also would like to give you a present. A tie.
In Response

by: Assir from: Abkhazia
September 02, 2010 16:05
This was the time when Georgian hysteria started , when Gamsakhurdia and Costava were shouting in the streets of Sukhum their ugly nationalistic slogans. Maybe you were among their bandit teams ?
You have to understand that however you are trying to bite anybody who resists your opinion? you do worse for yourself. The conflict which broke out a terrible war in Abkhazia , was not started by the Abkhaz people,
and if Georgia deserved freedom from the USSR, so consequently, Abkhazia and SO are able to claim for independence too/
And if you do not undertsand it , so you have a problem and sorry for you/.
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
September 04, 2010 22:34
To Asir

no in 1987 I was still a teenager, and that time I was not interested that much about politics. Obviously I had no idea about Costava and Zviad Gamsakhurdia that time:)
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
September 04, 2010 22:55
Metin. Kings road ? In which city. I must dissapoint you, unfortunatelly I have never been in Turkey. But in case you plan a trip to London by any chance, let me know. I am visiting RFERL web 2-3 times a week. :). We can arrange something.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
September 05, 2010 09:16
Dear Rasto, i have a favorite cafe in King's Road. Bluebird Cafe. London of course. Or let me know if you like something different. We can manage.
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
September 05, 2010 21:58
to Metin
Metin, I am plebs, Bluebird Cafe is bit posh to me. . I work on Gray's Inn Road, 10 minutes walking from Kings Cross station. There are plenty of nice small cafes.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 02, 2010 11:44
Yes Dacks, I have been to Russian, Georgia, and Abkhazia.

Tell me Dacks, do you have any idea of what you are talking about?

You being a Wellingtonian I doubt it.

As for Georgian oppression, well considering that the USSR was run from the centre, ie Moscow, that really should be Russian oppression. Quite simply the Russians were always very good at playing one ethnic group off against the other.

By the way, you do realise that Stalin hammered Georgians just as hard as other ethnic group in the USSR, and harder than most with the obvious exception of the Chechens, Ingush, and other small groups that were exiled to Siberia.

See the Ossetian crimes against the Ingush in 1989-91 for a good example.

Furthermore, I fail to see how the Apsua struggle for freedom can be seen as anything other than a racist campaign against a community which suffered just as much from foreign invasion as they themselves. And a struggle which ended with a breach of ceasefire and the ethnic cleansing of the largest ethnic group in the territory.

It is one thing to "struggle for freedom" but ethnic cleansing followed by an apartheid system is nothing to be proud of.

And now the Apsua are going to find out how the Russians view ethnic minorities and their "struggle against oppression" see what has happened to the Chechens and Ingush for details.

Note the recently passed law allowing people like the mayor of Moscow to purchase land in Abkhazia, something that even Apsua have no right to do under the constitution, see the Apsua get shafted by their new imperial overlords.

Russian is the official language of government and has been for some time, Russia now controls the rail network, the borders, you name it.

I guess idiots like you will try an blame the Russification of Abkhazia on the Georgians too, that would be par for the course with uneducated little trolls such as yourself.
In Response

by: Assir from: Abkhazia
September 02, 2010 15:57
To Andrew
Can you kindly tell us when were you to Abkhazia and who could ever tell you all these paranoic info which you are introducing to the world
Surely you are not sitting at the comp the whole day pushed by tremendous love to Georgia, and without being engaged for some thousands of evro , which you need much more then the real truth about the Abkhaz - Georgian cobflict /
I am sorry to read all you write and I am sure that you are lying saying that you have ever been to Abkhazia.

If so then I can truly say maybe you were deaf and blind that moment?
What is this manner called when a foreigner is judging others without pure heart which can be so easily bought ?
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 03, 2010 04:53
Assir,

My problem is not with the Apsua, but with the government you have and it's racist policies.

Lets see, Georgians are not allowed to become citizens, or vote, despite being the overwhelming majority in Gali they have no representation in your parliament. Their language is officially banned, they are harrased daily by a violent militia.

I am fully aware of the Georgian governments failings during the early 90's, but to be honest they pale into insignificance when compared with the deliberate campaign of mass murder and ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the separatist fighters.

In addition, the misuse of history by the separatists in particular, much of which amounts to outright falsification, is another form of genocide, which icludes the destruction of centuries old Georgian monuments in Abkhazia.

As to my points about your own administration selling you out to the Russians, can you deny it?

You will find Russian over lordship much worse than anything you would have from the Georgians, after all look at what your Russian masters did and are still doing, to your north Caucasian brothers, in particular to the Chechens.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
September 03, 2010 07:39
Dear Andrew,

Let me give you only one example and tell us your opinion. You are talking about ''destruction of centuries old Georgian monuments in Abkhazia.'' Where show us please!!!

But let me show you something.

Georgian troops entered Abkhazia on 14th August 1992, sparking a 14-month war. At the end of October, the Abkhazian Research Institute of History, Language and Literature named after Dmitry Gulia, which housed an important library and archive, was deliberately torched by the invaders, who were bent on destroying the documentary evidence that proved Abkhazians' residence in their historical homeland; also targeted was the capital's public library.

See http://www.abkhazworld.com/headlines/151-a-history-erased.html

Read Tom De Waal's article: http://www.opendemocracy.net/democracy-caucasus/abkhazia_archive_4018.jsp

What do you think about this vandalism? Could you say this is vandalism? Oh no, Georgians never do that, right? They are angel! How they can do that.

I am really tired from your lies, from your black propogandas!!! Such a person you are!?
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 03, 2010 10:59
Now Metin, I condemn that stupidity as well.

It was definitely a vandalism, and a crime.

However what your people have done is on a far larger scale, and you show your hypocrisy in a very overt and blatant manner.

Tell me, do you condemn the destruction of Georgian monuments, Churches, gravestones and memorials dating back over 1000 years?

Do you Metin?

By the way, thanks for the Church website that shows Georgians living in Abkhazia ever since historical records began, it was very kind of you to help me out like that.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
September 03, 2010 13:23
Dear Andrew,

Please show me which monuments, churches etc. talking about? Then, i am ready to condemn.

It seems you didn't understand anything from my says. Maybe i should write again and then you should read again and again. Abkhazia was part of a united Georgia ONLY in the Middle Ages, when it united with Georgian speaking lands by right of dynastic inheritance. It's very clear right?
In Response

by: Anzor from: Maykop, Adygeya
September 03, 2010 13:54
Pick the ones you like and reject others. Falsification of history. This is your job Andrew.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 03, 2010 19:37
Actually Metin, Abkhazia was part of the kingdom of Imereti until the 16th century, when it was captured by the Ottomans.

You know this I am sure.

And the 16th century is definitely not the medieval period.

There has been a constant Georgian presence in Abkhazia for around 2000 years Metin, if you deny that then you are a liar of epic proportions.

Why would the nobility use Georgian as their first language? Why were all Churches in Abkhazia full of Georgian inscriptions?

Why was the capital of the Kingdom of Abkhazia-Egrisi in Kutaisi?

Really Metin, you have to try harder than that.

BTW, that website on Churches in Abkhazia was very useful for proving my point.
In Response

by: Serap from: Istanbul
September 03, 2010 20:05
Look at this profile on Youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/giorgiloladze1997

This is from his profile:

100% Georgian
100% Patriot
100% Orthodox
100% Anti NAZI

Not surprised me. Georgia for the Georgians idea continues. This is absolutely %100 Nazi idea.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
September 04, 2010 10:46
Dear Andrew,

You have many -ABSURD- claims but unfortunately NO source. Anzor said very well. Pick the ones you like and reject others.

And you don't answer my question. Which churches, monuments etc. destroyed.. Show me!! Show us! This is your claim and you must have some sources about it.

I already show you about Abkhazian research institute and national library. Now let me give more examples.

Statue of D. Gulia: http://www.hrono.ru/libris/lib_b/gulia_d.jpg You can see what Georgian invaders did! (I hope you can see)

Statue of Chochua. http://www.hrono.ru/libris/lib_b/chochua.jpg

Statue of E. Eshba: http://www.hrono.ru/libris/lib_b/eshba_e.jpg

This is the result of Georgian fascism!

You are like a joke. You must be happy in your dream world and i see very clearly that you are suffering from the TRUTHS.
In Response

by: Fatih from: Istanbul
September 04, 2010 12:34
Hey Andrew, we are singing Istanbul not Constantinople http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZURtjFuQQ70

You must sing Abkhazia not Georgia :)))
In Response

by: Assir from: Abkhazia
September 04, 2010 13:28
My problem is not with the Apsua, but with the government you have and it's racist policies.
-------------------
But as seen from all your utterings and that stubborn repeating of the word Apsua, instead of Abkhaz, you seem to have huge problems.
You know very perfectly that Apsua means in Abkhaz language Abkhaz , but the term Apsua was used by the pseudohistorian Ingorokua, and you are doing your best in providing here and there his theory? About the Apsua tribes appeared in Abkhazia just two centuries ago , etc/ I am not eager to repeat all as a puppet? But my kind advice to you is to read other resources and to take a neutral position if you would like so much to be understood rightly
Otherwise, sorry to mention it , but your thoughts are just unheard and as having no background at all, you pretend to realize the story, which is absolutely not yours.
The Abkhaz government was elected by the majority of population and as before , it has nothing to do with those of your accusations, which are more suitable for the regimes both Shevarnadze and Saakashvili/ But you like them? So you are not able prudently to consider the whole situation of the conflict broke out in Abkhazia , when Georgia invaded it once.
--------------------------------------------------
Lets see, Georgians are not allowed to become citizens, or vote, despite being the overwhelming majority in Gali they have no representation in your parliament. Their language is officially banned, they are harrased daily by a violent militia.
-----------------------------
1. You are totally wrong.
2. Just the one who is so much unaware of the situation could write such a nonsense.
3. All Gal residents who take the Abkhaz citizenship, has to refuse the Georgian.There are lots of such. But they are scared to say it openly, as they do not want to follow the destiny of Sigua.
4. Maybe if you are so much concerned about Gal people, you will try to find out where Sigua is buried , as the family of his have no idea about it.
5. Metin told you millions of times about the story of how Gal megrelians became a Georgian majority, but it seems all is in vain , because your way of thinking is hard to overturn and you are doing your outstanding best to make such huge propaganda of Georgian policies. This is regrettable , but one can survive it.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 06, 2010 12:04
Sorry Assir, but you are wrong.

"The human rights situationfor the ethnic Georgian population in Gali worsened in 2009. Residents reported increased pressure from the Abkhaz authorities, and they also continued to suffer from widespread poverty, particularly after the closure of UNOMIG, which supplied many jobs in the region. A July amendment to a law on citizenship that would have made many of Gali's approximately 45,000 ethnic Georgians eligible for Abkhaz passports – entitling them to vote, own property, run a business, and obtain Russian citizenship and pensions – if they gave up their Georgian passports was scrapped in August following protests by the opposition, which claimed the move would undermine Abkhaz security."

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,FREEHOU,,GEO,,4c1a1eab21,0.html

So, banned from getting citizenship EVEN IF they are prepared to give up their Georgian citizenship.

Sounds like racial discrimination and apartheid to me.
In Response

by: Assir from: Abkhazia
September 06, 2010 16:08
Andrew
It is very easy to drop in the discussion such words as apartheid or discrimination, etc//
But instaed of giving common phrases , it is better to say concrete/
If people of Gal region would like to live a normal , quiet life recognizing the laws of Abkhazia, the leaders across Ingur will never allow them so, as I told you about the destiny of Tengiz Sigua , who was probably killed , as njo one has seen him more then 2 years, because of his loyalty to Abkhaz authorities.
How will you cakk this
o not forget that mostly the Gal people were Abkhazians and it was in Stalin time when they were forced to change their naationality, otherwise they will simply be arrested or killed.
How will you call such actions ?
We can write and write to each other here , but can you stopGeorgian or can you help them to stop their nationalizm and their schavinizm? which appeared so distructive fpr their country and them?
But instaed of a real help, you follow their propaganda and even fuell it/
In Response

by: J from: US
September 04, 2010 02:13
I saw the pseudo historical link you provided. The map is out there. It shows "Azerbaijan" back then? Simply illiterate
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