Tuesday, February 14, 2012


Commentary

The Little War That Actually Didn't Shake The World

Russian demonstrators with a poster of Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili behind bars in August 2008 -- a wish Moscow failed to see realized.
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By Ghia Nodia
What were the results of the Russia-Georgia war of early August 2008? At first it seemed as if the war would overturn everything in the region and create a new global reality. But nothing of the sort actually happened.

Russia's goal was to fundamentally change its status in the post-Soviet space: to end the West's trend of squeezing Russia out and restore its role as the dominant force in the region.

Georgia and Ukraine have traditionally been the main obstacles to achieving this. Within Ukraine -- for cultural and historical reasons -- Russia has powerful allies who could legitimately come to power. And in the end that is what happened.

In Georgia, things are more complicated. Even Russia's economic blockade did not achieve Moscow's ends. A surgical intervention was necessary.

Pyrrhic Victory?

Abkhaz celebrate Russian recognition of independence. The war did result in greater clarity in regard to Georgia's breakaway regions.
And that didn't work either. Control over several gorges in Abkhazia and South Ossetia was the main result of Russia's military victory. Of course, for a country as small as Georgia, even this is a painful loss. But considering the relative military might of the two countries, it is fair to say Georgia got off lightly.

The main thing is that Russia didn't manage to hang President Mikheil Saakashvili "by the balls" (according to Western media, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin expressed this very desire), neither in the literal sense, nor even figuratively. The war did not produce chaos in Georgia or provoke a serious political or economic crisis.

Despite many problems, state institutions withstood this test. The attacks by the opposition in the spring and summer of 2009 only resulted in a boost to the president's popularity and the discrediting of his opponents. No one today is predicting domestic unrest in Georgia.

Russia's reliance on "soft power" hasn't brought success either. Moscow tried supporting some apparently solid political leaders (a former prime minister and a former acting president) who are actually unpopular and second-rate figures in Georgia, apparently expecting that friendship with Putin would strengthen their position.

And the result? Zurab Noghaideli and Nino Burjandze began to appear more often on television, but their popularity didn't rise. Most Georgians want better relations with Russia, but not at the price of treason.

The "demonstration effect" of the war -- let everyone see what happens to those who openly cross Moscow -- also hasn't worked. The coming to power of Viktor Yanukovych in Ukraine, which was Russia's most serious postconflict success in the post-Soviet space, had nothing to do with the war. At the same time, Belarusian President Alyaksandr Lukashenka has been acting up and a pro-Western government has come to power in Moldova. Clearly there has been no overall turning point.

Much As It Was Before


The increased activity of Turkey in the region was connected with the war. Ankara proposed the strange "Platform of Stability and Cooperation in the Caucasus," which was presumably aimed at weakening the West's position. But the first step -- Turkish-Armenian rapprochement -- fell through, and everything remained as it was.

Opposition led by Nino Burjanadze (left) and others has also failed to budge Sakaashvili.
Russia did achieve some success on the information front. Russia was criticized more than Georgia was, but the war definitely led to a certain discrediting of the Georgian leadership in the eyes of the West.

As for the 2009 report by Heidi Tagliavini that was commissioned by the European Union, it doesn't matter that it rejects almost all of Russia's arguments. The main thing was that it did not justify the Georgian attack on Tskhinvali on the night of August 7-8. This has strengthened the impression that Georgia started the war and that the Georgian president was prone to reckless actions. This was a serious victory for Russia, since Russia can ignore criticism from the West, but Georgia cannot.

This was serious damage for Georgia: after the war, Western leaders had far less confidence in Saakashvili than before. But this does not mean that the war created real obstacles for relations between Tbilisi and the West or that it fundamentally weakened the West's position in the region.

Yes, NATO membership for Georgia has been derailed, but that is not a result of the war, but of the April 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest. Ronald Asmus has written in his book, "A Little War That Shook The World," that that decision might have been one of the causes of the war.

But Georgia still has no other alternative than to push for integration with the West, and Georgia remains the West's most reliable partner in the region. The slowdown in cooperation with NATO has been offset somewhat by an acceleration of relations with the European Union.

And, finally, the main result of the war: greater clarity on the matter of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. At present, the Georgian-Abkhaz and Georgian-South Ossetian conflicts basically don't exist. There is one conflict now -- Georgia-Russia -- and no resolution is in sight. Georgia will not renounce its claim to its territory, and Russia will not alter its recognition of the two regions.

This, of course, is bad. But it is clear that, although Georgia will defend its positions, the problem of resolving the old conflicts has basically been removed from the agenda.

Ghia Nodia is professor of politics at Ilia State University. The views expressed in this commentary are his own, and do not necessarily reflect those of RFE/RL
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by: Henrik Dumanian from: New York
August 06, 2010 20:10
Nice try Mr. Nodia. It is clear however that the war has had a number of devastating repercussions for the Georgians. It is not only that the credibility of the Georgian president has been tainted, but of Georgia itself. An impulsive country with two breakaway regions (and a third pending) that has a border with Russia can never be a NATO member. And the "occupation" by Russian troops of Abkhazia and South Ossetia means there's only two ways Georgia can be incorporated into any serious Western security networks: 1) Russia leaves (unlikely), or 2) Georgia recognizes their independence (unlikely).

Second, the war highlighted the complete failure of the Georgian armed forces, and by extension the inability of the West to alter the military balance (really the only important factor) in the region. The two other neighbors have definitely taken note. Isn't it a little pathetic that the most pro-Western state in the region has the weakest military, with large parts of its country under occupation? Armenia, despite its weak economy, in no way shape or form envies Georgia.

Russia has become the single and most powerful power broker in Transcaucasia. It has shown that the dangerous path the Georgian president chose to take Georgia in is not an option anymore.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Aunckland
August 08, 2010 07:28
Well, complete failure of the Georgian armed forces is a bit of a stretch, considering that they were still holding Tshkinvali on the 3rd day of the fighting against a vastly superior Russian & Separatist military force (the separatists being armed over the last 20 years by the Russians actually had more tanks and artillery per man than the Georgians, and had as many men under arms....)
And withdrew in line with the Sarkozy ceasefire, which the EU failed to enforce.
The amazing thing is that they managed to hold up a much larger Russian force which had air superiority, a massive advantage in artillery and AFV's for so long.

The Russians on the other hand have little to crow about, losing over 12 aircraft (including a Tu-22m Backfire) while the Georgians lost no combat aircraft, despite constant operations at night.

I know many of the USMC training group in Georgia, they are all of the opinion that the Georgian troops themselves performed very well, but were let down by political decisions in both the west and their own country.

By the way, the Russians were coming no matter what the Georgians did, you can't launch an operation on the scale of the Russian attack at 5 minutes notice.
In Response

by: Henrik Dumanian from: New York
August 09, 2010 15:48
The Russians had air superiority...the Georgians had anti-air superiority (as do most countries, at this point). They didn't "hold" Tshkinvali. They were spared Tshkinvali.

Anyway, I don't want to argue military logistics -- the war revealed the complete unpreparedness of the Georgian armed forces in comparison to the other Transcaucasian states, especially the ones with a Russian tilt. For more see: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/18/world/europe/18georgia.html -- that's "classified Pentagon" stuff. Doesn't get any more objective than that.

But, if the Russians were going to win this little battle anyway...why did the Georgians poke them in the face? Bravery?
In Response

by: Andrew from: Aukland
August 10, 2010 16:27
Really Henrik, you need to get an education old son.

It was the Russians and the separatists who were poking the Georgians in the face with weeks of mortar and artillery attacks against the ethnic Georgians, and pro Georgian Ossetians in South Ossetia (you do realise that many Ossetians actually support being part of Georgia, such as Dmitry Sanakoyev, head of the pro Georgian administration prior to the war.

As for "anti-air superiority" well if you consider the cold war SA-11 to be state of the art, you are a cretin. Most countries do not have "anti-air superiority" at all, as evidenced by the ease with which western militaries can destroy soviet era and also modern Russian equipment with impunity.

With regards to unpreparedness, well Armenia would take a massive caning in the same situation, so don't think you are anything special mate.

In addition, it is a documented fact that on the morning of the day they withdrew from Tshkinvali, the Georgians were in control of the town, and had even launched counterattacks that drove Russian troops out of the footholds they had gained. Man for man they proved much better than the Russians, who relied on their typical tactics of stupidity and mass numbers.
In Response

by: Henrik Dumanian from: New York
August 11, 2010 16:39
It is unfortunate that you have resorted to ad hominem attacks on me. But I'll try to keep the conversation clean.

You have ignored the points I was making. The fact is, Sahakashvilli's witch hunt against the Russian government has never been in the interests of Georgia. Both Armenia and Azerbaijan have massive grievances against Russia as well. Especially Azerbaijan, where the Russia is preserving the status quo "occupation" of their land. But it would be ridiculous of Aliyev to set Azerbaijan on the same path as Georgia is currently on, wouldn't it? Or take the complete takeover of Armenia's economy by Russian businesses (a lot of them bad ones that wouldn't survive in a real open market). Does it make the slightest geopolitical sense to confront Russia on the terms Sahakasvhilli has chosen to do so? Who gains from Sahakashvilli's little "revolution" in the long-run? Not the Georgians.

Like I said, the Georgians assumed America would help, and that they would be able to overcome the massive obstacles a confrontation with Russia would bring. The 2008 war is just a side effect (or Russia's final solution) to a huge miscalculation by the Georgians.

The "poking of the face" I was referring to was a massive land attack. The occasional (or even frequent) border shelling are common in all of the frozen conflicts. The Georgians do it, the Armenians do it, the Turks do it, the Greeks do it, the Azeribaijanis do it, the Abkhazians do it, the Russians do it -- everybody does it maybe except the Canadians. These frequent cross-border bombardments don't mean you have to send in a land force and try to invade.

Anyway, what I was saying, sir, is that the hugely inflated defense budget of Georgia (which has become bigger than the ENTIRE budget of Armenia, I think), it's cozy links with the west, its growing democratic credentials (which I am suspicious of), and frequent visits by American Secretaries of State STILL haven't produced an army that can rival tiny, puny, poverty-stricken, land locked Armenia, or even somewhere-in-the-middle Azerbaijan. If you're a thoughtful strategist either in Armenia or Azerbaijan, and you're thinking of the long-term, YOU DEFINITELY TAKE NOTE.

You know, I would give the Georgians credit for bravery. But, I'm just wondering, how did they up losing to tiny little separatists in the early 90s? Don't tell me it was Russia again.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
August 12, 2010 03:46
Well Heinrik, the Georgians lost to the Abkhazians because of Russian support for the separatists.

The Russian Black Sea fleet supported the separatist forces, the Russian VVS (Frontal aviation) bombed Georgian troops and civilians, Russian tanks and infantry took part in separatist operations that were planned and led by Russian officers. In addition, Russian artillery units shelled Georgian held towns.

All of this is quite well documented, so I will ignore your instruction to " Don't tell me it was Russia again." because it was.

Telling you you need to get an education is not an ad-hominem attack, it is simply a fact that you need to understand things before you comment on them.

By the way, Armenia is not "tiny" compared to Georgia, and the reason why Armenia won in Karabakh was Russian support.
In Response

by: Henrik Dumanian from: New York
August 13, 2010 01:52
This idea that Russia essentially tipped the balance of power in favor of the Armenians is insane. Russia was selling to whoever was willing to buy. And considering the Azerbiajanis started out with more military hardware and had the advantage of a first assault, I would say the only thing Russian arms to Armenia did was level the playing field. Russian support was important during the war, but that it was the deciding factor is and has been a complete lie. People should stop repeating it on these boards.

From a purely military standpoint, the Azeri defeat in the last war was pathetic. They had every advantage one could imagine and should have been able to win the war relatively quickly. Most of the important hardware the Armenians had was not even Russian, it was captured from the Azerbaijanis. Their 2-1 size advantage only makes it that much more of a victory for the Armenians (and I don't even want to mention the big discrepancy between the two side's losses). What exactly are you arguing? The Georgian army is more mobile and developed as the Armenian one? Or the Azeri? Please, talk about an education.

And I was referring to you calling me a cretin. I hope you can learn to have a civilized conversation on this issue one day.

As for the discussion, you have failed to address any of the points I made and keep dragging the debate into almost irrelevant areas.
In Response

by: jonjo from: uk
August 08, 2010 13:01
unfortunately the world is the old lawless place to be after the georgian russian war, it showed that strong,undemocratic brutal, power is always right, despite clear evidence that Russians ethnicaly cleansed georgian territories "democratic" world has turned blind eye to Russian atrocities in Georgia and not only there...leading by the US new administration the west is eager to please Russia by any means, even more, the world forgot lessons from the world war two and encouraged Russia to do anything they wish to, including, changing borders and rewriting history, well done West. unfortunately, this kind of double standards will hit you back very soon....
In Response

by: Bart
August 08, 2010 21:00
jonjo, I love how you differentiate undemocratic ethnic cleansing from democratic ethnic cleansing. Kosovo has been ethnically cleansed of all non-Albanians except in small ghettos in the north and south. Up to 250,000 people were expunged this way while "democratic" peacekeepers looked the other way.

Also, Iraq has become a disaster zone and a country with one of the highest rates of birth defects. Democratic bombs in Falluja created a cancer increase that is worse than Hiroshima.
In Response

by: k from: uk
August 13, 2010 15:54
@Andrew from: Auckland: You say it is well documented fact that Georgians were holding. This is the biggest joke I ever heard. Their soldiers were running for their life (shown by BBC) and there was no ceasefire. It was just that out of mercy that the Georgian president was left hanging in power which was called a ceasefire by western media. Try to read what ever is available on net , time.com, nyt.com etc. That will give you complete picture...
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
September 01, 2010 09:36
Well "K" try reading this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tskhinvali

It seems the Russian military has a great deal of respect for the Georgians, unlike uninformed idiots such as yourself.
In Response

by: BOris from: London
August 08, 2010 17:08
Henrik Dumanian,

Armenians shouls stop strategically orienting on Russian Empire. It will not bring any good to you. Tthe Russian army in 1915 left you to be slautered by Ottomans, remember? They are not reliable partners. Russia gave you Nagorni Karabakh, but is it sustainable? its a big question. And also it leaves out Armenia from all regional projects.
In Response

by: Henrik Dumanian from: New York
August 09, 2010 15:33
These are all good questions, and yes, it will be a very difficult landscape for the Armenians to maneuver in the years to come. However, this approach is still preferable to the alternative. Slower economic growth for a long term military and strategic advantage is the lesser of the two evils.
In Response

by: Seyran from: Armenia
August 09, 2010 23:45
Boris from London, Armenia is left from all regional projects because no one of our neighbor countries benefits from us being integrated in there. Turkey and Azerbaijan closed the border with us, Georgia benefits economically from being our only link to the outside world, which means all possible connection in terms of export and imports pass through Georgia, which gives them high revenues. And with Iran the situation is unstable, so building strong relationships with Iran would only gain us worldwide disapproval.

Fact of the matter is, isolating us is good for everyone, except of course for us. In terms of economy and politics, all are winners, except Armenia. We highly dependent on Georgia and Russia, which serves for their interests, and we are highly pressured by Turkey and Azerbaijan, which serves for their interests too.

Having close relationship with Russia is, for more than many of us doesn't like it, the only thing we have left. We know they are not reliable partners and we know they use us for their own interests, do we have other choice?

And please stop with your "Russia gave you Karabakh", that is not true. During the war, mercenaries from all CIS countries were present in both sides, furthermore during Operation Ring Azerbaijan received helped from the OMON and the USSR military, not mentioning the Chechen and Afghan volunteers that appeared afterwards. So yeah, Russian mercenaries were present at the NK war with Armenia, but mercenaries from Russia and other countries were present with Azerbaijan too...don't be like Azeries and try to justify the fact they lost by every single means.
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 10, 2010 07:09
to Seyran
I do not know what you are talking about in terms of isolation. I have read about the project being agreed between Armenia and Iran on transit of goods from Iranian ports and connecting railway from Iran to Armenia.
I do not think that anyone will blaim Armenia for transiting it gods via Iran please see recent no visa agreemnet betwen Georgia and Iran signed without any disaproval . I do see your comments saying that Georgia benefits from your isolation as a very disproportionate. At the end it is not Georgia who has put Armenia into the isolation. I do not think that that many Armenians are using Verkhni Lars to transit to Russia. I would say comments of your mate with Armenian name on Russian and Georgian condflict really surpised me. Perhaps he believes that Armenian army would have a chance against Russians. You guys should stop playing the best in South Caucassus, because it is really silly.
In Response

by: Seyran from: Armenia
August 10, 2010 17:20
To Rasto:

All goods coming as export to Armenia come via Georgia, that is food supplies, gas supplies, and the only strong working pipeline we have comes via Georgia territory. We are highly dependent on Georgia. Yeah, they are not the ones who isolated us, but they managed to find a way for that to benefit them. When we signed the Armenian-Turkish deal, the only ones in the region who would not be benefited were the Georgians, and everyone could see that for they have high revenues on being our only source to the outside world. We have Iran, but our main supply source on everything, even Internet connection, comes from Georgia.

I was not speaking about transit good from Iran, we have a railway to Iran, we receive some goods from Iran, we have a pipeline with Iran...but we receive them in very little fractions compared to what we receive with Georgia. I was speaking about building strong relationships with Iran politically speaking. Being a major partner in everything with Iran is not sustainable since it is not an stable situation...if tomorrow the US and Israel can attack Iran, what can happen to our region? We already had issues with supplies during the August war, we were isolated totally all that whole week...imagine how can we find ourselves with a war in Iran should Iran be a major partner of us. We are in good terms with Iran, we have strong relationships...but that doesn't compare to us and Georgia.

And come on, we don't believe the best in the South Caucasus..where do you get that from? Who ever said we can have a chance against Russians? Who ever implied it? Don't be silly.

To Boris:

Dear Boris, turning West with NATO is as good as turning East with the CIS. Both have no good for anyone because nobody gives a damn about our region's security, they only care about the oil transit coming from Azerbaijan. We already know with Georgia what happens when you turn West, you are left alone...the same that happens when you turn East. So both ways have no purpose. The difference is we already have strong relationships with Russia and they have huge interests in keeping things like they are with Armenia, so making a stupid move as suddenly turning only for NATO is not a good idea for our economy or our security.
In Response

by: Boris from: London
August 11, 2010 12:33
Seyran,

I'm talking about development of the region. Being attached to Russia, that lags behind the west for about 50 years is not a good choice, which has been vividly demonstrated for Armenia and Georgia for las 200 years. And, for all the other nations that have been occupied by Russian empire. Yes, the west will not fight for you, but still there is still no other alternative. And, NATO sertainly brings security as well as ivestment along with it. Being economically dependent on Russia is a very bad idea, as all of their businesses are run (missmanaged) by KGB people, and absolute priority is politics.
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 11, 2010 13:05
To Seyran
Armenians do like present themselves as a best in South Caucasus.
Come on, you did not watch film Mimino ??? Where is the second best water in the world ?
I do have friends and some colleagues in all three South Caucasus countries so I had a chance to grasp some cultural "traits" there.
In Response

by: Seyran from: Armenia
August 12, 2010 06:57
to Rasto

Oh, come on man...you take such things seriously? Do you think Armenians believe the best in the South Caucasus? If you have ever spoken to Georgians, you will see they think so as well, the same with Azeries. Every single nation in the world believes they are the best, it's just a reflection of their national egos. Like, once I was told by an Indian that the Indian anthem is the best in the world, then a Frenchman said the same, and so on...

Don't blame Armenians for that, we are proud of who we are and what we have, and of course, if you ask me what is the best country in the region, where does water tastes best, I will say Armenia. Wouldn't you say the same about your own homeland?

Come on man.
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 08, 2010 18:09
Looks like you are funded straight from the Putin treasury
In Response

by: Boris from: London
August 10, 2010 07:52
Henrik and Seyran,

Yes, there is an alternative for Armenia. If powerfull Armenian diaspora in US intensified work on integrating all of the transcaucasus region into NATO, that would best serve the interests of the future generations in the region. Of course this can damage the relationship with Russia, and they will do their best to stirr up trouble, but there has never been a risk free acativity in global geopolitics, when you are talking aabout historic and fundamental changes on the scopoe of libaration of Eastern Europe. If Armenian diaspora acted in this direction, Turkey and even Azerbaijan could be more accomodating and reduce the pressure.
In Response

by: CJ Poitras from: Saskatoon, Canada
August 11, 2010 00:27
Just a quick question to those involved in this conversation. Where any of you actually in Georgia when this war happend?? I was......and I was in Georgia for a family wedding. What a suprise for the happy couple! Panic! I think the goal of one of the players was acheived.

by: Herny Krinkle from: Portsmouth UK
August 07, 2010 06:10
"This has strengthened the impression that Georgia started the war"

Well, didn't it? What a one-sided biased article.

In Response

by: Boris from: London
August 08, 2010 16:48
Henry Krinkle,

How long do you think it will take a Russian milittary to prepare a massive attack on the neighboring state, by land, air and sea by all the means at their disposal, including strategic bombers,tactical missiles SS 21, tochka U and others? Is there any way it could have taken 3 hours?
Its so fullish to assert, that Georgians started the war... Russians completed the military drills on the border of Georgia just days before the attack... they even handed the brochures to solders with the title "Solder, now your enemy". And enemy was georgia of course.
When you see divisions of envading forces cross your border you may and should shot first on them, but of course, this doesn't mean you started the war..
Only positive thing (If their could be such) is that Russian KGB (who runs the country today) tried everything to topple the Georgian democratic government, and thus change the political course, starting from energy cuts (beloved weapon of Putin), to embargos on georgian products, to stirring politicl unrest, to all out war...,they just did everything they could, and couldn't, but none of that worked. And now, they will probably leave us alone. And, there could be a momentum for us in near future, like it was in 2003-2005 when the Kremlin Checkists openly panicked, and Surkov was implementing one after other preventive procedures.
Well, it wouldn't hurt if Republicans returned to office to launch a sophisticated attack on Russia on that scale, but this is a different topic.
The fight is not over yet...
In Response

by: Bart
August 09, 2010 16:37
Boris, stop being so ridiculous. In early August both sides were fully making preparations and most NATO capitals were aware of Georgia's plans in South Ossetia. No one is claiming it was a surprise war. For the record, Georgia was evacuating family members of government ministers but they left ordinary Georgians in the dark about what was going to happen.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/robin-llewellyn/thorn-in-side-of-georgia%E2%80%99s-rose-revolution

Also, citing 1915 as an example of the undependable Russian army is ridiculous. I wonder what else was happening in 1915? Weren't they trying to hold Germans back after the Germans had captured all of Poland?
In Response

by: Boris from: London
August 10, 2010 08:07
Bart,

August is the best time for invading Russian army to attack, because of the clear skyies, law rivers, mountain passes etc. If Georgia was the one who chose the timing of the war, i can assure you , it wouldn't be August. This is just one of the miriad arguments. Western leaders only say that Georigan leadership shouldn't have fallen into the trap set up by Putin (this argument is also incorrect, because there is a red line that no country can allow to be crossed). no one argues that it was a Russian provocation, and thus their initiative.
In Response

by: sven
August 10, 2010 10:05
Just to address the assertion that the Georgian govt was evacuating family members ahead of the attack -- this makes the cardinal mistake of many western media that the Geo-Ossetian/Russian conflict began the night of August 7. In fact, the area had been a conflict zone for years, and tensions had been on the rise for months before the Georgian attack.

All before August 7:
http://www.rferl.org/content/Russia_Warns_Georgia_Over_South_Ossetia/1188429.html
http://www.rferl.org/content/Six_Dead_In_Georgia_South_Ossetia_Shootout/1188046.html
http://www.rferl.org/content/NATO_Says_Overflights_Call_Russias_Georgia_Role_Into_Question/1183776.html
http://www.rferl.org/content/Interview_Russia_Becoming_Directly_Involved_Georgia_Separatist_Crises/1183396.html
http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1144501.html

by: SHAKALOSERLI from: THAKANSVILLI
August 07, 2010 10:24
the problem of resolving the old conflicts has basically been removed from the agenda.

NICE

you hit the nail on its head

THERE ARE NO PROBLEMS

GEORGIA AND RUSSIA MAY RESUME RELATIONSHIP LESS SHAKA

by: Nikolai Lavrov from: Moscow
August 07, 2010 19:01
Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia
In september 1993 Russia organised an ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia. Thousands of civilians were murdered by Abkhaz militias. The majority of the population, about 300,000 Georgians, were driven out of their homes.
In august 2008 Russia organized genocide in Sout Ossetia..
Russia was preparing to wage war in Georgia several years ago, when the Russian authorities began to hand out Russian passports to the residents of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
How do you think the UN, EU and other organisations should react to this?

Solution for Abkhazia and "South-Ossetia": 500.000 Georgian refugees return to their homes in Abkhazia and "South_Ossetia", democratic elections are held and a referendum to decide the future status of Abkhazia and "Sout-Ossetia". Those who participated in war crimes and genocide have to be brought to justice.
Until this happens the Abkhazian and "South-Ossetian" republics are a fake.

In Response

by: Bart
August 08, 2010 21:06
There are not 500,000 refugees at all. Before the first war there were approximately 65,200 Ossetians and 28,700 Georgians. After, the number of Ossetians decreased by 18,200 and the number of Georgians decreased by 11,200. Therefore, until the war in 2008, Ossetians had more refugees than Georgians.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
August 10, 2010 03:34
Well Bart, I suggest you get an education.
Georgian refugees from the 1st war in Abkhazia, due to Russian sponsored ethnic cleansing = 250,000 (over 350,000 if children born later are considered, which is normal practice, see Palestinian refugees for example), and from the most recent war, over 70,000 Georgians were displaced, including from areas adjacent to South Ossetia, including places like Akhalgori, and from Khodori gorge.

You really are an uneducated commentator on this subject old chap.
In Response

by: Rasto from: Lonodn
August 10, 2010 07:16
To Bart \; sort out yoru data and stop pushing your anti Georgian agenda at any cost as you are perfroming right now in this diccussion with the propaganda half true links and claims
The discsussion is about IDPs from:
1. Samachablo (JO)1991
2. Abkhazia 1992-1993
3. Abkhazia 2008
4. Samachablo (JO) 2008
In Response

by: Bart from: Lubyanka
August 18, 2010 16:14
Andrew, did your education teach you to read and count?
The numbers of total refugees do not add up to 500,000. Additionally, there were always more Ossetians in South Ossetia (NOT Samachablo, and we now know who the real chauvinist is here), so how do you think a referendum would go?

Abkhaz is a different animal altogether. They formed the minority, they had bad relations with Georgians before the end of the Soviet Union, and they risk being assimilated or wiped out in an ethnic Georgian state.
In Response

by: Marco Borg from: London, United Kingdom
August 09, 2010 14:53
There is no need for a solution, because there is no problem. to solve. The problems caused by Yeltsin in Georgia have been more or less solved. Shaaks and his family might still govern Georgia but that's the the Georgians' problem. A lot might have been done about the refugees and possibly the territory but the American Colour Revolutions in Georgia and the United States put paid to that. Now the amazing growth in bureaucracy and dollar-printing in Obama's US will mean that US adventures in Europe and perhaps Chinese money to pay for its credit card and mortgage expenditure will come to an ened.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 09, 2010 15:49
It was Georgia STARTED the war. Shevardnadze says, it was our biggest mistake. Watch Mamuka Kuparadze's documentary ''Absence of Will'', you will see the confessions of the Georgian officals. Read UNPO reports and see what Georgians did against non-Georgians! Abkhazians are lost %4 of their population? Georgian General Karkarashvili threatened to kill ALL Abkhazians!

500,000 refugees? Such a black propaganda. Saakashvili says same words.
According to the 1989 census there were only 239,872 "Georgians" living in Abkhazia, some of them never left Abkhazia and it was Abkhazia which unilaterally decided to open the gates for the (largely Mingrelian) refugees to return to Abkhazia from Georgia in 1999. Georgia at that time was actually accusing these refugees of being TRAITORS to Georgia. Today there are more than 55.000 of them living freely in Abkhazia’s Gal District.

We know very well that many Georgians fought against Abkhazia in Georgian side. According to the 1951 UN Convention on Refugees, those who use arms in an armed struggle and then flee do not fall under the international definition of refugees. The responsibility for these people fell and falls solely on the Georgian authorities. It is important to note here that a great many of those who fled from Abkhazia were recent immigrants. They were partly victims of the compulsory resettlement organized by Stalin (Georgian) and his Mingrelian lieutenant Lavrenti Beria.

Abkhazian society can allow the return only of those Georgians who did not fight on the Georgian side and only after they recognize Abkhazia as an independent state.

Also, when it comes to the fate of refugees and their right to return home, what is to be said of those Abkhazian descendants (over 300,000) of those more or less forced to leave Abkhazia, when it was populated virtually exclusively by Abkhazians, in 1864 and after 1877-78 Russo-Turkish war?
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 10, 2010 07:27
Mertin or whoever you are writing under at least 2 nicks against Georgians all the time.
The war in Abkhazia would not satrted if there was no students violend attacks in the Soukhumi University in 1989 supported by Police forces from ethnic Abkhazians. Then Georgian police unit was disarmed later on. In any country such an act from Police forces is an unprecedent attack against law of the country equal to mutiny. It was not Georgia who started war in Abkhazia but it were Abkhazians. Georgians has no reason no motive to start any war, but they were Abkhazians who were unhappy and demonstarted their unhappiness by violence.

by: Anonymous
August 07, 2010 22:13
Dear Henrik you sound as instrumental as you want to portrey this article. You say " there's only two ways (!) Georgia can be incorporated into any serious Western security networks." You judgement seems increasingly shortsighted and leaves a feeling you have a superficial knowledge about the conflict. Nobody who has an understanding of the situation would judge that by recognizing Abkhazia and South Ossetia Russia will stay at its peace and Georgia will be able to walk on the red carpet to the western structures. Abkhazia and South Ossetia is not a goal in itself it has never been and will never become one in the future. I will not eleborate any further but you would benefit from a brief course on the caucasus conflicts and Russian politics.

You also say "Russia has become the single and most powerful power broker in Transcaucasia. It has shown that the dangerous path the Georgian president chose to take Georgia in is not an option anymore." A complete blunder of reasoning. Russia has long enjoyed the position of a "power broker" and considerable military advantage against its neighbours and there was no need of August 2008 to have a clear understanding of that for anybody concerned. And lastly if under the "dangerous path" you mean standing up to the imperialistic pressure to push your country westward it is still very much an option.
In Response

by: Henrik Dumanian from: New York
August 09, 2010 15:30
I never suggested the breakaway regions were a goal in and of themselves. That was, in many ways, the grander point. But you're right, unforeseen developments can definitely change the entire geopolitical landscape -- like aliens invading for example. That would certainly change a lot.

I don't feel the need to explain what impression Georgia's dire situation has left on the minds of Sarkisian and Aliyev, especially with both countries so sensitive about their land being "occupied."

-----"And lastly if under the "dangerous path" you mean standing up to the imperialistic pressure to push your country westward it is still very much an option."---- HA! Is that what you think Georgia has been doing? Standing up to "imperial pressure?" They've just swapped one hill for the other as far as "imperialism" is concerned. Transcaucasian states that adopt emotional views like this are most certainly on a "dangerous path." The only state that has understood these long term dynamics, as far as I'm concerned, is Armenia -- incidentally, the only country that doesn't have part of it's territory under occupation. Statements like this reveal your flawed approach.

The Georgians fell into the trap the Americans set for them: the assumption that you are either Russia's lapdog, or America's friend. Georgia would have been much better off in every respect if Sahakashvilli had taken the road down the middle. This extreme is unacceptable -- for any of the three countries in the region, but especially for one that shares a border with Russia.
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 10, 2010 07:54
I consider your comments related to Abkhazia and Samachablo "They've just swapped one hill for the other as far as "imperialism" is concerned" sort of immature. Abkhazia's coast is the finest in the former Georgian Black Sea coast. The tourist potential before 1992 was the highest of all Georgia.
So could you please explain me what territories Georgia swapped for Abkhazia and Samachablo and with whom ? As far as I know Armenia understood that the only chance for them is to keep the brotherhood relations with Russia, which seems to be very much irreversible now after 75 % of all investments in Armenia are comming from Russia, not talking about Russian military presence there.
In one of your previous contributions you wrote about Georgian army and their defence of Tskhinvali. Perhaps Armenian army in such a situation would stand tight till last man against army of military power as Russia. What city has the second best water in the world after San Francisco? If you do not know watch the old Soviet film "Mimino" ..first minute in the link below
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cSVukvsiS8
In Response

by: Henrik Dumanian from: New York
August 10, 2010 16:00
And lastly, Rasto -- Armenia would never be dumb enough to attack Russia. But in terms of the strength of the Armenian armed forces, I would like to remind you that they defeated the oil funded army of Azerbaijan with their grandfather's rifles in the early 90s -- despite being outnumbered almost 3 to 1. And it still looks like they're just as mobile and capable, despite their total economic isolation and poverty.

It's no secret, the Armenian army is the most mobile and well-prepared of the three Transcaucasian countries. Even the Pentagon agrees.
In Response

by: Boris from: London
August 12, 2010 07:12
Henrik, Armenia defeted Azerbaijan only because Russia provided masiive assistance. Armed Armenian army with modern and superior weaponry, whereas they armed Azeris on a much lesser scale. I remember USD 1 billion worth of millitary equipment transiting Gerogia to Atrmenia back in early 90's.

And no, Georgia didn't loose to tiny Abkhazia. It was Russian empire, that we lost a war to.
What the KGB did in all of the frozen conflicts was, they gave to one side some millitary eqipmnet, and to other more of it which always determined the outcome of the conflict.
For Georgia, they thought (correctly) more complex operaton was necessary,. First they stirred up internal urest in Georgia, culminationg into the full scale civil war, then sent us the old crook Shevardnadze, accompanied with the ministers(kgb spyis) and criminals, and then pushed that colorfull crew into Abkhazia.
Group of Lubianka crooks played with all of us like with the toys, and thus preserved/froze the sphere of influence in the caucasus for another couple of decades, hoping that they would recover by then and push with the new aggression. Which has proven to be absolutely true... good job on their part, but the thing is that they serve to evil, and our obligation is to fight the evil.
Its an evil empire they are trying to ressurect now...

by: J from: US
August 07, 2010 23:00
>The coming to power of Viktor Yanukovych in Ukraine, had nothing to do with the war...
yes, but why would it?Why would a 5 day war in tiny far awat Georgia affect the relationship of two giant Slav countries? This article is addressing a non-issue.

by: Paul from: Ipswich
August 08, 2010 12:05
Gia's assumption as to Russias aims is the basic precept of his article. Question is where did he get these from.. I doubt if the Kremlin told him. In which case they are a Georgians perception.. Gia is a reputable analyst, but sadly less objective than he used to be since receiving Government funding for his think-tank.. ultimately he views are tinged with Tbilisi State propaganda.. I hardly think legitimate Abkhaz grievences are 'off the agenda'.. this is the kind of denial that lead them to loose trust in the Georgians on anything in the first place.. just compounding the errors of the past 20 years..
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 08, 2010 18:36
I would assume that one can comment an article using arguments not dirty smearing, that very few can judge whether it is true or not i.e. mr. Nodia receiving funds from the government. If that is true than I would like to write that I appreciate Mr. Nodia's sense of judgement in this article.
In Response

by: Henrik Dumanian from: New York
August 10, 2010 15:54
You misunderstood Rasto jan -- I mean, in terms of fighting the imperialism of Russia, Georgia has accepted the imperialism of the West. For all we know, Bush told Sahakashvilli to start the war to help out John McCain during the elections, despite knowing it would be bad for Georgia.

America is just as, if not more, imperialistic than Russia.
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 11, 2010 13:14
to Henrik Dumanian.
You cannot be serious about what you wrote above. I assume you have never been to Georgia so you do not understand Georgian mentality, Georgian geography and the history and evolution of conflict between Georgia and the separatistic regions.
In Response

by: Boris from: London
August 12, 2010 07:17
Henrik,

I'm sorry to have waisted time talking to you. This guy is talking about western imperilizm. This is ridiculous, and in the spirit of old Sviet propaganda.

I got it now, you are just a paid FSB agent, tasked with propaganda in the blogosphere. There are many of your kind here on rferl.

by: Alexandre. from: The Netherlands.
August 08, 2010 12:48
Of course that Georgia began the war...They repeared the train for move froward the invasion in Abjasia in April 2008 and sent 3500 soldiers to that georgian region at the same time. Also they sent chechens mercenaries to Tsinvali in April 2008 and they bild up a tank military base in Java town in defiance of their role of peacekeepers...Ah and they gave to
Tsinvali strella missiles for to hit georgian helicopters...And 3 Mig military airplanes ( but they didn't teach fly its like venezuelan Sukhois ).
God joke you3 have been writte before me, but I still have humor sense, like you.

Alexandre.

by: Aleksandr from: Canada
August 08, 2010 23:54
Russia is not in a position to be a power broker. It is getting more clear as more time passes since August 2008.

One may argue that Georgia has been abandoned to its faith by the West, but I'd rather say Russia has moved into the trap that will have devastating long term consequences for Putin's Russia.

Russia keeps occupying two regions from a sovereign country. That's damn expensive and Russia simply cannot afford anything really expensive.

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 10, 2010 11:02
Rasto, i can strongly recommend you read ''Soviet Abkhazia 1989, Facts and Thoughts''

Now, lets see what Shevardnadze says in Mamuka Kuparadze's documentary ''Absence of Will'' Vimeo: http://vimeo.com/8826939

[4:34 sec.] Reporter: Mr. Shevardnadze, could you we have prevented the war in Abkhazia?

Eduard Shevardnadze: Of course we could. However, we need to remember the times we were living in back then and what was going on in Georgia at the time. But [Tengiz] Kitovani, the defence minister, should never have sent troops to Sukhumi. That was our biggest mistake.

Now lets see what General Karkarashvili said;

[11.52 sec.] Gia Karkarashvili [General - Army Commander of the State Council of Georgia]: In the first place, the Ossetian war [1991-92] in Tskhinvali had just ended. The Georgia National Guard suffered heavy losses. We were exhausted. That’s why I thought it was reckless to go into Abkhazia. But I was told that the 13th-14th August was a good time to launch a military operation because the Russian Parliament was in recess. Unfortunately, we entered Abkhazia in a very disorganized way. We didn’t even have a specific goal and we started looting villages along the way. As a result, in the space of a month we managed to make enemies of the entire local population, especially the Armenians.

And Georgi Anchabadze;

[21:12 sec.] Georgi Anchabadze [Historian]: Perhaps they wanted complete independence from Georgia. They certainly didn’t want to join Russia again. Even now they don’t want that. They wanted more real political rights within Georgia.

Anchabadze: They offered three choces:

1. Georgia should become a federation with Abkhazia.
2. Abkhazia should become a republic within Georgia.
3. A two-chamber parliament should be set up.

Georgia said no to all of these things.

You will see many confession in Kuparadze's documentary.

So, Georgia said NO all of these things and what happened? INVADED Abkhazia! STARTED the war.

And finally what Guram Odishaira says. Again from the documentary;

[18:10 sec.] Guram Odisharia: '' If I’d thought for one moment that something was about to happen I would have got my family out of there. But it was a complete shock to me when the war started. I was on holiday when it happened. I was swimming in the sea when I saw two helicopter-gunships dropping bombs on the town. I could see black smoke rising around my house. We counted 55 tanks.''

Btw, Shevardnadze says so before him: ''As far as I remember Kitovani didn’t have any tanks. He had cannons, machine-guns, guns and other things…''
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
August 10, 2010 16:41
Now Metin, try reading what the UN, Council of Europe, Human Rights Watch, and Memorial have to say about the Apsu separatists.

The separatists conducted a deliberate campaign of murder, rape, ethnic cleansing and the resultant looting.

Apsu massacred Georgians in Gagra, Gaudata, Omchamchire, as well of course as in Sokhumi, repeatedly broke ceasefires, and were considered by all observers to be responsible for the overwhelming majority of war crimes committed.

Ardzinba's racist rhetoric against Georgians and his cry of Abkhazia for Abkhazians (meaning Abkhazia for Apsua) dates from around 1978, and pseudo history as vomited forth by people like you would deny that there were ever Georgians in Abkhazia, despite the historical evidence that Georgians have always lived there.

An interesting example of the difference between Georgians and Apsu is the fact that Georgian TV still broadcasts programs in Apsu for the Apsu community that lives in Georgia (including my wifes aunt) while Apsu separatists commit crimes of oppression against ethnic Georgians in Abkhazia by banning Georgian language education in Gali, by denying the right of refugees to return in violation of international agreements, by illegally invading Georgia in 2008 (see the IFFC report, every action taken by Abkhazia was illegal).

Tell me why separatists insist on taking control of areas that have always been majority Georgian, such as Gali, Khodori, and western Svaneti?

Why do the people of Gali not have the right to secede and join to Georgia, after all unlike Apsua who were only 17% of the pre war population, the Georgians in Gali are around 98%.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 11, 2010 15:11
Now Andrew, i think you have learnt that the war STARTED by Georgia. Now let me show you an exceprt from UNPO's 1992 Abkhazia report.

''...The Mission obtained sufficient evidence to conclude that gross and systematic violations of human rights had occurred at the hands of Georgian troops in Abkhazia throughout the period since August 14, 1992; that these included serious violations committed against Abkhazian and other ethnic population groups in cities and villages; that civilians were the primary victims of Georgian abuses; that Georgian attacks were directed against persons identifiable as Abkhazian, and that particular attack was directed against Abkhazian political, cultural, intellectual and community leaders; that in addition to Abkhazians, also Armenians, Russians, Greeks, Ukrainians, Estonians, and other non-Georgian minorities in Abkhazia have suffered similar treatment by Georgian authorities; and that removal or destruction of the principal materials and buildings of important historical and cultural importance to Abkhazians has taken place in what appears to be an organized attempt to destroy Abkhazian culture and national identity.''
UNPO's Abkhazia Report, November 1992, b. Human Rights and Cultural Destruction - November 1992 Mission to Abkhazia.

You should read what Anchabadze says.

On 14 August 1992 when the Abkhazian Parliament was discussing a draft proposal for a Federation with Georgia, the Georgian bombs started, and the Georgian tanks attacked towns and villages. It was a bloody war, with crimes committed FIRST by Georgians and then by Abkhazians. The Georgians purposefully burnt down our State Archives and our Institute of Literature, History and Culture. It was quite symbolic. You can read about all this in the UNPO report that organized a fact finding mission to Abkhazia in 1992.

You can't show me one single source about your claim that Ardzinba said ''Abkhazia for Abkhazians'' But i can show you very easily what Gamsakhurdia said: ''Georgia for the Georgians'' See 1.28. second: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBk-lwFXqV8

And let me add a quote from Gamsakhurdia's speech: ''--We will stand by them as long as they right historical wrongs, leave Georgia and go back to where they came from(*). Don’t listen to anybody who tries to present the truth in a different way. The Abkhaz nation doesn't exist'' 08:22 sec. in Kuparadze's documentary.

About the refugees, read my above comment.

You says that ''Why do the people of Gali not have the right to secede and join to Georgia, after all unlike Apsua who were only 17% of the pre war population, the Georgians in Gali are around 98%.''

And i ask; Why do the people of Abkhazia? not have the right to secede. Btw, did you know how Georgians became majority in Abkhazia? If you don't know just search this in google: ''Demographic change in Abkhazia'' and ''Stalin and Beria Terror in Abkhazia'' You will find the answer.



In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
August 12, 2010 18:57
Now Metin, are you really trying to claim the UNPO is some sort of respected international rights group?

Sorry bucko, but UNPO stands for "UNrepresented Peoples Organisation" and has nothing to do whatsoever with the UN.

I prefer real researchers, such as Human Rights Watch, Memorial, The OSCE (or Council Of Europe as it was at the time) and the UNHCR, all of whom condemned Apsua war crimes and described the actions of the separatists as a pre planned and centrally directed campaign of ethnic cleansing directed against not only the Georgian population, but also against anyone who supported the central government.

Interesting to note that during the siege of Sukhumi, Georgians rationed supplies to all residents including Apsu and Russians, doing their best to ensure all residents of the city were fed, compare this to the mass murder and rape committed by separatists, such as the Gagra massacre, where the entire Georgian and pro government Apsu part of the population were herded into the football stadium and killed by Apsua and Russian volunteers.

By the way, the killing was started by Apsu radicals in 1989 with the massacre of unarmed Georgian students by well armed Apsu including police units.

Unfortunately people like you have fallen hook line and sinker for Russian propaganda.

Georgians and Apsu have BOTH lived in Abkhazia for over 2000 years, once again I call on you to explain why all historical monuments, some over 1500 years old, some even older, in Abkhazia, were built by Georgians, to Georgian designs, and covered with Georgian inscriptions and artwork.

And interestingly Ardzinba was preaching Abkhazia for Abkhazians during the 1978 attempt to secede from Georgia and join Russia.

By the way, in 1918 Apsu were 21% of the population of Abkhazia, and Georgians were 42%. So much for blaming Stalin, who was far more of a Russian at heart than anything else.

Of course, now that Russia is firmly in control of Abkhazia, controlling the borders, the military defence/occupation, and forcing Apsu lawmakers to give rights to Russians that ordinary Apsu do not have such as the right to buy land, well you will see which side your bread was buttered on.


In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 13, 2010 08:48
Dear Andrew,

Did you know that Georgia was one of the members of UNPO? It seems you don't have anything about UNPO and its mission.

Let me add an excerpt from UNHCR's report: The North Caucasian Diaspora In Turkey - 1 May 1996.

''-- The invasion by Georgian forces of Abkhazia in August 1991 and their criminal behaviour created shockwaves among the North Caucasian communities in Turkey. They fully identified with the separatist side. Reports about deliberate destruction by Georgian forces of all major archives, scientific institutes, libraries, museums and theatres in Abkhazia, of ethnic cleansing, looting, rape and wanton destruction caused acute fear of another genocide.''

Is it ok for you?

Of courseit was no accident that the Abkhazian research-institute and archives were torched (after cherry-picking) in Nov 1992 -- it was done to try to erase documentary proof of the Abkhazians' presence over the centuries (not to say millennia) on Abkhazian soil. Find on net Thomas De Waal's article: ''Abkhazia's archive: fire of war, ashes of history''

Now let's remind what Karkarashvili said: ''Unfortunately, we entered Abkhazia in a very disorganized way. We didn’t even have a specific goal and we started looting villages along the way.''

What about Karkarashvili, Shevardnadze, Guram Odiashara, Georgi Anchabadze... Are they also working for UNPO? What is your excuce about it?

By the way, The statehood of Abkhazia, before Stalin (Jughashvili) made it a part of the Georgian SSR in 1931, is based on a long and almost uninterrupted historical tradition. During the 8th-10th centuries Abkhazia was a Kingdom, ruled by the dynasty of the Leonides, and from the 13th century up to 1864.. The Abkhazian Principality was abolished by Russia in 1864 - end of the Russian-Caucasian war - which is Georgia was ALLIED with Russia against North Caucasians.

Excerpts from Austin Jersild and Neli Melkadze's ''The Dilemmas of Enlightenment in the Eastern Borderlands: The Theater and Library in Tbilisi''

-- - Many Georgians were eager to take advantage of the privileges associated with imperial service, associate themselves with Europe's notion of progress, and also distinguish themselves from nearby rival and Islamic peoples such as the North Caucasus mountaineers.

-- - Service records from the imperial era left in what has recently been renamed the Georgian National Archive illustrate the important role played by Georgians in various wars against both mountaineers and the Ottoman Turks.

You can find more in that article. It's not from UNPO, no worry.

According to data from the 1886 census, there were a mere 515 Georgians living there (alongside 3,558 Mingrelians) in Abkhazia. In 1882, the Georgian newspaper ‘Shroma’ considered Georgian acquisition of land in Abkhazia and Circassia as ‘one of the most wonderful events’ in the life of the Georgian nation ['Shroma', 1882, No: 15 (in Georgian)].

One of the leading Georgian intellectuals of the time, the educationalist Iakob Gogebashvili, wrote an interesting article in Tiflisskij Vestnik in 1877 entitled /vin unda iknes dasaxlebuli apxazetshi?/ (Who should be settled in Abkhazia?). In this article he argued that the neighbouring Mingrelians would make the best /kolonizatorebi/ (colonisers)... And this is precisely what they subsequently became.

Let me know if you like more sources. It will my pleasure to share all of them.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 13, 2010 09:09
Let me add one more thing please; Abkhazia was part of a united Georgia ONLY in the Middle Ages, when it united with Georgian speaking lands by right of dynastic inheritance. When the USSR was formed, in recognition of local realities, Abkhazia had the status of a FULL republic. It was only after Stalin had established himself in the Kremlin that in 1931 he was able to reduce its status to that of an autonomous republic within Georgia. Abkhazians NEVER willingly accepted this, and what happened from the first clashes in 1989 is too well known to need repeating. When a state so mistreats its minorities (as happened in the last days of Soviet Georgia), it loses all moral right to continue ruling them. Shevardnadze STARTED the war in Abkhazia and LOST it, along with Abkhazia itself. Georgia needs to recognize this and get on with its own affairs (viz. in Georgia proper). One wonders how long it will be before problems arise in Javakheti, where the Armenians have no great wish to be subordinated to Tbilisi. Maybe one day the Mingrelians will wake up and realize that Tbilisi has no real interest in them and their language and culture and deem it time to do something about it. Then there’s the Azerbaijani community in Dmanisi and Marneuli – there were clashes there too in 1989, and so can Tbilisi rely on peace remaining in this region? There are plenty of potential trouble-spots in this most heterogeneous of republics, even minus S. Ossetia and Abkhazia. Tbilisi should be thinking about how best to order its affairs so as to avoid further hot spots developing and reducing ‘Georgia’ even further.
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 13, 2010 13:00
Metin
Abkhazia was not unified with Georgia in one kingdom mainly because both were always vazals of either Persia and Byzantium ( before king Leon) or later vazals of Arabs Mongols Turks , and therefore seprated in small principalities of different forms and size that was easier controlled by superpowers. The only period where Georgia enjoyed independence from plundering ( for longer period) was period from times of King David Builder to times of Mongol invasions in mid of 13 century. You know well that Samegrelo, Racha Svaneti were many times unified with Abkhazia in so called Abkhazia-Egrisi, and lived in common principalities more frequently than with Kartlians and Kakhetians, but you cannot hear Mengrelians or Svans saying we have nothing to do with Georgia. You know well that for centuries - till 18 th century the written and religious language in Abkhazia was Georgian language and in the architecture, art there was little or no differnce between Georgian and Abkhazian. Mengrelian and Abkhazian do have even specific meals that do not have origin in other Georgians for example Ajika. You know that reasons why Abkhazia together with part of Svaneti and Mengrelia or Guria ( i.e. East Georgia) were not unified with Kartvelians and Kakhetians ( western Georgia) was that western Georgia suffered much more of plundering and wars with Arabs, Mongols and Turks than Eastern Georgia, that enjoyed bit more peace and less attention from invaders/
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 17, 2010 20:56
Metin
Shamil envisioned a general offensive coordinated with the Circassians, but his emissary Mohammed Emin had difficulty persuading the Circassians to cooperate systematically. Sefir Bey took a mission from Constantinople to Sukhum and then to Tuapse to try to mobilize Circassian efforts. The Shapsugs in the south were equivocal, although the
northern tribes in the vicinity of Anapa were eager for action. The Abkhaz, who had both Christian and Russian princes, were divided, with the Christian favouring the Russians. As a price for cooperation the Abkhaz Muslim Prince Iskender asked for assurance that would be recognized as independent and allocated additional Georgian territory. This territory happened to belong to the Dadianis, a Georgian noble family that had kept its distance from the
Russians.
and more from web Circassian world.
http://www.circassianworld.com/Circassian_Resistance.pdf
You can read about facts such as that georgians did not fight against Circassians in first half of Russian Circassian war from mid 18th century till end of 18th century only after Georgia became annected vazal of Russia.
You always blaim Georgians for its role in Russian Circassian war , but you never condemned some Circassian princes who collaborated with Russians,
read on same web:
During the early 1830s the Russians made some inroads into Circassian solidarity by pursuing a policy of peaceful enticement of the northern tribes, gaining the collaboration of some of the princes and nobles as they had done earlier in Kabarda, and enticing the free peasantry by trade.
...
Also you never blaimed Armenians and Cossacks who fought alongside Russians agains Circassians and settled in territories cleaned of Circassians. I really think that your interpretation of historical facts is really very selective.
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 18, 2010 09:23
To Metin

metin you are funny guy , when I was talking to you severalmontsh ago about need of reconciliation between Georgian and Abkhaz you wrote to me this is impossible and now you are posting a link of Ucha Nanuashvili as something you appreciate. I sometimes cannot get it.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
August 20, 2010 09:13
Really Metin, that can be said about any culture. After all, look at the Apsu, your crimes against humanity were far worse than anything committed by the Georgians, the Gagra massacre, the Sokhumi massacre, the expulsion of almost all non Apsu from Abkhazia in a deliberate and centrally planned exercise.

Then there is the cultural and political opression of the majority Georgian (98%) population of Gali, whose language is banned, who are unable to gain Abkhazian citizenship due to racist apartheid laws enacted by mass murderers.

However, the simple fact remains that the Gali/Samurqazano region was predominantly Georgian long before the 19th century.

The Greeks described Dioscuras/Sokhumi as a Cholchian city, not a Circassian one, the Romans described it as a Svanian city, and considering that it was part of their empire, they should know.

Your blind racism is all to apparent. As long as there are repulsive bigots such as yourself as the majority of your people, you will never prosper.

This is shown by your inability to understand the historical links between your own people and their Georgian neighbors.

What you have done is stupidly placed yourself under Russian occupation.

They own you body and soul, your people are being culturally exterminated.

What is the main language of business and politics in Abkahzia today?

Russian.

Who can own land?

Russians

Who cannot own land?

Any body else.

Who controls the borders, the military, and appoints people to positions of authority in Abkhazia?

Russia.

Well done Metin, you should drop the M and put a C at the start of your name.

In Response

by: Boris from: London
August 11, 2010 06:18
What is interesting, this Metin guy seems to be Georgian. I wonder how screwed should one's mind be to be writing against his own people.
In Response

by: Alex from: U.S.A
August 11, 2010 13:13
Metin is not Georgian, He's a Turkish traitor!
In Response

by: Anonymous
August 11, 2010 17:10
Ankara is the capital of Turkey it is not in Georgia
In Response

by: Boris from: London
August 12, 2010 07:21
No, he's georgian, and FSB agent probalby, sitting somwere in downtown Mosvow.
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 12, 2010 08:46
Alex , Metin is Circassian activist from Turkey, google some Circassian webs and you will find him contributing in discussions and writing articles.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 12, 2010 09:59
As i see, the TRUTHS are disturbing some people. It must... If you come to Ankara, i will be glad to talk more about the truths. You are more than welcome. Goethe said once; “I can promise to be frank, but not to be impartial.'' So, i don't expect impartiality from you but let's be frank!
In Response

by: Boris from: London
August 13, 2010 09:00
Metin,

If yo realy are Circassian, I would advise you to concentrate your efforts on writing about Circassian genocide commited by Russian empire in 19th sentury. Most of your ancesstors were summarily executed in mass, and the rest deported to Turkey, proud dessendant of whom you are. Pitiest thing in the world is when the victims of the attrocities are serving to their tormentors, as some in North caucasus and elsewhere do today.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 13, 2010 10:08
Dear Boris, at first i am wondering are you feel regret after your accusations about me? FSB agent, traitor Georgian etc... It's very easy to accuse someone for you.

Anyway. Be sure that i am interested in very closely on the Circassian Genocide. As Rasto's did, just use google about it. You will find many things about it. But let me remind you something; In the 19th century the only people in Transcaucasia to fight against Russian encroachment were the Circassians, who battled alongside their cousins in Abkhazia and Ubykhia, whereas Georgia was already ALLIED to Russia and thus helped the tsars to crush North Caucasian resistance.

Let's continue to show other excerpts from Austin Jersild and Neli Melkadze's [GEORGIAN] ''The Dilemmas of Enlightenment in the Eastern Borderlands: The Theater and Library in Tbilisi'' http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/kritika/v003/3.1jersild.pdf

- Colonel Giorgi Tsereteli from Kutaisi, for example, not to be confused with the writer and sometime theater critic referred to later in this article, managed to survive fighting in Chechnia and Dagestan from 1855-59, service on the Lezgin Line after the conquest, and combat in the war of 1877-78 against the Turks. In 1876 he helped put down a rebellion in Svanetia.

- After the conquest, a Georgian was considered sufficiently reliable to administer troublesome Dagestan oblast¢ in the 1880s. Tbilisi served not only as the base of imperial administration and a growing imperial educated society, but also as an anchor for the Russian military in their prosecution of the long Caucasus War.

- Tbilisi was host to important innovations in Russian imperial policy. The well-known geographic, ethnic, and religious complexities of the region perhaps contributed to a general willingness on the part of Russian officialdom to innovate in its administration of this frontier. Tsar Nicholas I himself lost patience with the seemingly interminable war and granted extensive authority to Prince Vorontsov, an unusually powerful and independent figure in the imperial administration. As Anthony Rhinelander has explained, Vorontsov was experienced in the borderlands and well-acquainted with the Caucasus, where he began his military career as an adjutant to Georgian Prince P. D. Tsitsianov (Paata Tsitsishvili) in the early 19th century.

So, I would advice you to concentrate your efforts on writing ALSO about this. Can you do that? Let's talk about the TRUTHS!

This is what i said before: ...What the 19th-century Circassians and today’s Georgians have in common is their anti-Russian sentiments. Never mind that Georgia actually provided Russia with her first stronghold south of the Caucasian mountains (in the 18th century) and thereby attracted her attention to the northern regions. Never mind that Georgians fought on the Russian side in the Great Caucasian War. Never mind that what Tbilisi has been doing and still seeks to do in Abkhazia (with enormous financial support from the USA) exactly parallels what Russia was doing a century and half ago in the North Caucasus. Logic is nowhere to be seen in all of this, for if one condemns 19th-century Russian actions, as indeed one should, then one should equally comdenm present-day Georgian actions against the Abkhazians.

That's why Dr. Laurent Vinatier says so: ''Abkhaz independence reminds me of the Chechen Ichkerian struggle. Europeans should understand that, viewed from the Caucasus, Abkhaz and Chechen (national) fights for independence are absolutely not in contradiction.'' [Reflections on the Caucasus: 21 May 1864-2010]
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 13, 2010 12:35
to Metin
I think now you are unfair. First who provided stromghold to Russians in North Caucasus were Ossetians. Than after 1801 Tsar Pavel simply annected Georgia. Than later on the Russian policy was to pull some local small Georgian princes to the Russian side so people who lived in these principalities would follow. In fact Georgians under controll of Russians did not have a chance to resist or refuse to fight. Each defeated and occupied nation in history of mankind was obliged to provide army and supply to the imperialistic superpowers. Therefore you had janichari (Armenians, Bulgarains) fighting in Turkish army against other Christians . It may well happenned that except of the Georgians that were ordered to fight there were some georgian army officiers who sought career in Russian army, but on that basis you cannot judge role of all Georgians in fight against Circassians. In these times Georgian muslims in Adjara Lower Guria and Georgian Laz people were also evicted and had to flee to Turkey.
In Response

by: Boris from: London
August 13, 2010 13:57
Dear Metin,

First of all, you are absolutely wrong asserting that the Georgians always opressed the Abkhaz. As a matter of fact, Abkhaz are just a subgroup of Georgiansl ike Imerertians, Svans, Kakhetians etc. Being a person who seems to habve specially reseached Georgian history you should know this, as well as the fact that King David the Builder was called the king of Abkhaz and Georgians, and since the encient times Shervashidzes, Anchabadzes and others always fought alongside the other Georgians. Abkhaz were fundamental for the Georgian statehood... Double check your endless Georgian sources that you keep referring to.
And, how was the recent Abkhaz-Georgian conflict staged I wrote obove. You can read it. Of course it was all set up by KGB.

Your comments are exactly in line with longstanding KGB (from Soviet times) propagnada, and is very much pleasing to Russian Checkists who played devide and conquer game for centuries.

Secondly, I'm not denying that some Georgians were supporting Russian empire in the fight aganist the north caucasians. But Georgia was occupied country, with no government that expressed the will of the nation. This is a fate of all conquered nations, exept for those occupied by US. Because the Amricans fight to bring liberty and freedom to nations, and then build the relationships based on synergy, not zero sum game, as alll the other empires did. Western Europe, Japan and others are vivid demonstration of this theses.
We fought for Persians, Ottomans before. Also we lost more then 400,000 soldiers in world war two, which was by no means our war. I consider this a Georgian genocide, and a very cinical one. People were brainwashed to believe it was there war. Frankly speaking, it made no difference to us who won the war. And if we had to choose, it would have been better for us if Germans won, if this could save us so many lives.

Important thing is, that today, as any other time when we were independent and have a government that expresses the will of nation, our priorities are set in accordance with the national interests, and we continue to fight for freedom, as we've done throughout our history.

Whereas you, a dessendant of massacred proud nation are playing the game Chekists would appreciate very much.

I'd like to advise you again. Stop digging the fabricated history of interethnic conflicts in the caucasus. Concentarte on the atrocities commited by an evil empire against all the nations in the caucasus.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 14, 2010 11:36
Dear Boris (and Rasto),

I can't take you seriously after your words: ''Abkhaz are just a subgroup of Georgians'' Who can take serious this? Who? Waste of time....

Well, anyone tempted to delve into Georgian history as represented by Georgian historians should remember the words of the late Ossetian philologist, Vasiliy Abaev, who wrote at the time of the execrable explosion of nationalism amongst Georgian historians and linguists in the late 1980s:

''From Ivane Javakhishvili to Lovard Tukhashvili what a deplorable degradation!.. Be very careful which 'historian' you read and follow, especially if (s)he carries a Georgian name.''

'Despite the best efforts of Georgian propagandists in Turkey, the Laz have not yet been brainwashed (like the Mingrelians inside Georgia) to think of themselves as 'Georgians'.

Could you tell me who can take serious this fake map which is created by Georgians? Like your claims... http://img203.imageshack.us/i/fakemap.jpg/ I didn't know Georgians also ruled Circassi(ns).

Oh, just a waste of time...

I really have no wish to engage in debate with someone who can praise 'Pax Americana' one moment (have you not heard of the CIA's overthrow of Allende in Chile?) and then declare in the very same paragraph that it would have been better for the Georgians, if Nazi Germany had won World War II. I think this tells us all we need to know about Georgian attitudes and why the Abkhazians and South Ossetians have no wish to live in union with them.

No one is more blind than the one who does not want to see.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
August 15, 2010 16:52
Really Metin, you are proving to be a real fool.

Try telling any Mingrelian that they "are not Georgian" and see where it gets you. They do not consider themselves to be Kartlians of course, but their attitude is no different to the relationship between highlanders (picts) and lowlanders(celts) in Scotland.

Mignrelian, Laz, Svanian and Kartvelian languages are all closely related, and part of the same ethnographic family.

In exactly the same way that Apsu is related to north Caucasian languages, although there are differences nobody would suggest that the languages are not all from the same root.

The same goes for Laz, both in Adjara (Georgia) and in Turkey.
They consider themselves Georgians.

Buy the way, most of the north Caucasus was part of Georgia in the medieval period, as was Azerbaijan and a large part of Armenia.

Look at the medieval Georgian churches in Sochi for example.

Really Metin, your education is somewhat lacking.

By the way Vasili Abayev also talked abbout his love for the Georgian people and described South Ossetia as a natural part o0f Georgia.

"The declaration of [South Ossetia's] independence with an eye to Moscow and the prospect of unifying Southern and Northern Ossetia... [was] a mistake from a geopolitical point of view"; "Whoever wants peace between the South Ossetians and the Georgians should abandon forever the idea of the unification of Southern with Northern Ossetia. Whoever wants peace between Georgia and Russia should also abandon this idea." Vasilii Abayev [a prominent Ossetian scientist], Tragediya Yuzhnoy Osetii--put k soglasiyu", Nezavisimaya Gazeta, 22 January 1992.
In Response

by: Boris from: London
August 16, 2010 06:38
Metin,

waste of time indeed...

no one wnats to listen to your freaky views about Georgian internal affairs.

As i said before TELL ME ABOUT CIRCASSIAN GENOCIDE. THIS IS WHAT I'M INTERESTED TO HEAR FROM YOU. I realy am interested to here the story, because of course in Soviet Union it was not included in school curiculum. Give me some links that i can follow and learn.

But, I still think you are KGB paid blogger, and of course won't say a word, that is against the Russian/evil empire. I havn't read your posts on other topics, but I'm quite sure they are in line with the rest.

Links, Circassian genocide, no other word.... to remind you again.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 16, 2010 07:01
Dear Andrew,

No one is more blind than the one who does not want to see.

Ultra-nationalism makes you blind.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 16, 2010 14:43
Dear Boris,

I know the TRUTHS makes you angry. Do you want to hear about the Circassian Genocide? My pleasure. I think no need to repeat that Georgians fought on Russian side against Circassians and other North Caucasians, right? You can read Stephen Shenfield's article ''The Circassians; A Forgotten Genocide?'' http://www.circassianworld.com/new/war-and-genocide/1122

An excerpt from that article;

''The Circassians fought against Russian conquest for over a century, from 1763 to 1864 – longer than any other people of the Caucasus, even the Chechens. Their final defeat in the 1860s led to massacre and forced deportation, mainly across the Black Sea to Turkey, in the course of which a large proportion of them perished. Many Circassians were also utilized by the Ottomans in the Balkans to suppress the rebellious Serbs, but almost all of these were later relocated to the interior of Anatolia.

Since that time, the great majority – about 90 percent – of people of Circassian descent have lived in exile, mostly in Turkey, Jordan and elsewhere in the Middle East. Only isolated remnants, currently about three to four hundred thousand people altogether, remain in Russia and other parts of the post-Soviet region. During the last decades of the tsarist regime, the emptied and devastated Circassian lands were resettled by Russian, Ukrainian, Armenian and other colonists. Later many Georgians also settled in Abkhazia, feeding resentments that culminated in the recent Abkhaz-Georgian war - a conflict which can only be understood against the background of the Circassian trauma of the last century.''

So, dear Boris, that's why Georgian newspaper ‘Shroma’ considered Georgian acquisition of the land in Abkhazia and Circassia as ‘one of the most wonderful events’ in the life of the Georgian nation ['Shroma', 1882, №15 (in Georgian)].

Circassians and Abkhazians are shared same destiny. Genocide!? This guilt is not only against the Circassians, also Abkhazians, Ubykhs. Did you know that Ubykh language is LOST! All they are fought against Russia (when Georgia was ALLIED with Russia) and they have lost almost %90 of their population. Now between 3-5 million Circassians and about 350,000 Abkhazians living ONLY in Turkey.

I think you are supporting the Circassians about their demands, right? For example they should back to the their motherland, right? May i learn, what about return of Abkhazian diaspora? What do you think about it?

It's time to be honest! If you can... I know the truths will give you more pain but you should. At least try.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
August 17, 2010 09:27
Yes Metin, ultra nationalism makes you blind, you should look in the mirror, except you are too blinded by racism and ultra nationalism yourself.

As for "Georgia was allied with Russia", sorry mate but Georgia was ANNEXED buy Russia, and just as unwillingly as your people.

Georgians too had multiple rebellions against the Russians.

Once again, I suggest you learn some history at a reputable university.

By the way, can you explain why the Apsu left the Chechens in the lurch in the 1830's through to 1850's and again in the 1990's and today?

No wonder they decided that they were wrong to have assisted you against the Georgians.
In Response

by: Boris from: London
August 17, 2010 10:30
Metin,

You really are a funny guy, and your judgement is trivialistic to say the list. You are putting all the attrocities commited by an evil empire in the caucasus in the context of Georgians taking part and being instrumental in them.

Once again, Georgia was occupied country and if they fought for an Empire, they were forced to do so, just tlike the circassians (according to you) were forced to put down a Serbian rebelion.

You must have something personal against Georgians. I'm quite sure of it.

Nowdays Georgia is one of the most oppressed nations in the world, facing an uphill battle agains an agressive giant, with no meaningfull help from anyone whatsoever. Except for Chechnians of course, which were exterminated on the scale of 250,000.

BTW, you must have a lot of sources and information about Russian attrocities commited in the course of last two Chechnya wars, as this an ongoing conflict, and you won't have to dig into the late 1700's.

I would love to here your take on this recent war, and don't forget about Kadirov... I wonder if you can manage to put some blame on Georgians here too, as you did in case of Circassian genocide. That one actually was beyond the capabilities of experinced propaganda operative. Maxim Shevchenko would envy you. You've tillted it so interestingly and put in the context. You should go to the Russian sites, and show your self. Yo may be able to get a very well paid job.

Go ehead Metin, don't be shy. Tell us little more. It is really getting interesting to listen to you.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 17, 2010 14:49
Dear Boris and Rasto,

You are always speaking but you can't show any source(s) about your absurd claims.

At first, i strongly recommend you read to excerpts from Austin Jersild and Neli Melkadze's ''The Dilemmas of Enlightenment in the Eastern Borderlands: The Theater and Library in Tbilisi''

Please read it again and again. Maybe then you can stop to say Georgia was occupied country blah blah... You make me laugh with your endless exuses. Can you do more?

Oh yes, i have a lots of sources and information about Russian attrocities against Chechens. But please let me remind you something -- perhaps you already forgotten that in the 1st Chechen war Shevardnadze allowed Russian bombers to take off from Georgian bases/air-space to bomb Chechenia.

Maybe Georgia was ''occupied'' by Russia ALSO at that time!? What is your excuse about it? I am sure you will find one. It will not surprise for me.

By the way earlier during the Stalinist deportations there was one notorious incident in the village of Khaibakh where in 1944 hundreds of people were herded into a barn, which was then set on fire -- anyone escaping was shot. The commander of the NKVD group responsible was a Svan (Gvishiani), acting under the general directorship of Beria (Mingrelian), who was himself responsible to Stalin (Georgian).

As i said, i know that the truths will give you more pain and for me it's good to know it.

I am waiting for your new excuses.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 17, 2010 17:31
Dear Boris

I don't expect impartiality from you but please be honest. At least for once. Be honest!

You are often talking about occupation of Georgia. So please tell me what do you think about occupation of Abkhazia by Georgia?

Ruslan Khodzhaa quotes in his book from his own earlier ''Documents and Materials of the Abkhazian People's Soviet 1918-1919'' (in Russian, Sukhum, 1999) on Giorgi Mazniashviili's behaviour: ''Not a single tsarist general raged as mercilessly when subjugating the Caucasian peoples as Mazniev in Abkhazia'' (p.7). A contemporary assessment of Georgia at this time was given by an objective observer, Englishman Carl Bechhofer: ''The free and independent Social-Democratic government of Georgia will ever remain in my memory as a classical example of an imperialistic minor nationality both in relation to its seizure of territory to within its own borders and in relation to the bureaucratic tyranny inside the state. Its chauvinism exceeds the highest limits'' (In Denikin's Russia and the Caucasus, 1919-1920, London 1921).

Andrei Sakharov wrote in 1989: “Like the Soviet Union itself, Georgia is an empire, only a little one. If the Georgian people have a right to freedom from an empire, then so do all other minorities, no matter how small they are.” (Ogonyok 1989. No: 31. p. 26).

Can you see difference between Russian Empire and little Georgian empire? Again; what do you think about occupation of Abkhazia by Georgia?

In 1931, Jozef Stalin, Georgian by origin, reduced the status of Abkhazia to an autonomy within Georgia. What do you think about it? Would you like to hear more detailes about Stalin-Beria terror in Abkhazia? Or maybe you can tell. Can you? Be honest once and do it? Or are you grateful to Stalin because of his acts? Do you love Stalin because of his dids against Abkhazians, against humanity?

Maybe you love Hitler like Georgian Defense Ministry.

See, Georgian Defense Ministry TV quotes HITLER: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBQZkYOyHjY

What is your excuse about it? Please be honest only ONCE! And say that you comdemn this. Can you do that? Please show us that you are NOT an ultra-nationalist Georgian. Can you do that?

See Ucha Nanuashvili: ''Why I Apologize To Abkhaz People - Choice for Georgia: Georgian Chauvinism or Abkhazia?'' http://www.humanrights.ge/index.php?a=article&id=4517&lang=en

I know that you can NOT be like Ucha Nanuashvili BUT.... Please be honest, ONLY ONCE.
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 17, 2010 20:28
metin please give me a fact that you are curious about and I will give you a link. I am not acusing you of coking up an info. Actually lot o links abour role of Georgians in the Circassian war I have found on Circassian webs. On Laz people I have read Valeri Silogava book about Tao-Klarjeti, where it is clear that archeological excavations and scripts on churches in north western Turkey are showing that culture of people living on of these territories had very close relations to people livinmg on territories of current Georgia. North west of Turkey had historically very close ties to Georgia and its culture
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 17, 2010 20:59
Metin
you were questioning my sources . I have posted (by mistake above) some comments on my sources including web Circassian world. Please scroll up and look for my comments from 17th August. Thanks
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 18, 2010 07:12
Metin
Just to comment on your laugh at map showing that Georgians took over Circassia in middle ages. Please see maps clicking on the link beliow. The one is showing Georgia in times of David Agmashenebeli second one ( with more colours) shows Georgia during reign of Queen Tamar and her ossetian husband David Soslani. Circassians in that period were vazals paying tributes to Georgia.
,,,,
http://pokec.azet.sk/rrecuerdo/fotoalbumy/pridaj-album-formular?i9=a1be1e938b99#/rrecuerdo/fotoalbumy/maps/ft-357772660?i9=a1be1e938b99
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 18, 2010 10:56
Dear Rasto,

Unfortunately i can't see the map in that link. You can save it and upload to Image Shack and share with us. But i am wondering who created that map, Andrew Andersen? Who is famed with his FAKE maps.

Let me give you two links about the fake maps of the Caucasus.

http://www.caucasica.org/analytics/detail.php?ID=1145

http://caucasica.org/analytics/detail.php?ID=1156
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 18, 2010 11:42
Thanks Metin for links.
.
Georgia under reign of David Agmashenebeli
http://yfrog.com/n7georgia1j
http://img835.imageshack.us/i/georgia1.jpg/
,
Georgia duringreign of Queen Tamar
.
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3403/georgia2l.jpg
http://yfrog.com/0ageorgia2lj



In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
August 18, 2010 15:35
Now Metin, once again you need to get an education mate.

In 1921, Georgia's independence had been recognised by Britain, Russia itself, and more than 20 other nations. The Russian invasion replaced the hopes of European integration and development held by so many generations of Georgians with occupation and terror. From 1921 to 1945, Georgia lost up to a third of its entire population.

The interwar press in Britain was not silent, however. The first Labour prime minister, Ramsay MacDonald, wrote thus in the Glasgow Labour weekly Forward:

"Georgia was overrun by an army while it was too weak to fight successfully, and it is today being held down by force, and by committees of directors … It is estimated that 100,000 Russian troops are now required to hold down the country. Freedom of press and speech does not exist … These are facts. This is the kind of crime that finds both apologists and defenders amongst our left in this country."

Georgia, in the four years of independence between 1918 and 1921, was considered a bastion of liberalism and social justice by such eminent figures as Karl Kautsky (who even wrote a book about the Georgian democracy), Emile Vandervelde and Ramsay MacDonald himself, all of whom travelled to Georgia in 1920. Ethel Annakin, the world-famous women's rights activist, called Georgia on pages of your newspaper the same year "the most perfect socialism in Europe."

Georgia, with its free and vibrant press, jury trials, functioning parliamentary system and open economy, represented a fundamental challenge in itself to the tyranny that was being established by the Bolsheviks in Russia. Ramsay MacDonald wrote in The Nation in 1920 that "there exists no more solid barrier against Bolshevism today than the socialist government of Georgia." A US Congressional report of 1954 says that the Soviets "could not bear to have a truly democratic, independent state right on their borders." Change communists into Putin and those words are just as applicable today.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
August 18, 2010 15:45
Now, as to Georgia being in "alliance" with Russia, no, the correct words are occupied and annexed by Russia.

For example from a REAL historian:

David Marshall Lang

(excerpt from the book”A Modern History of Georgia”/NY/1962)

"GEORGIA UNDER THE TSARS: RESISTANCE, REVOLT, PACIFICATION: 1801-32

King Solomon II and Napoleon Bonaparte

The remaining independent princes of Western Georgia hastened to accept Russian suzerainty. In 1809, Safar Bey Sharvashidze, the Lord of Abkhazia, was received under Russian protection and confirmed in his principality. Prince Mamia Gurieli, ruler of Guria, was taken under the Russian aegis in 1811, receiving insignia of investiture from the Tsar. Only King Solomon II of Imereti held out to the bitter end.

Encircled by Russian troops, the king strenuously resisted an demands for submission, in spite of the fact that he had earlier, under pressure, sworn fealty to the Tsar. In 1810, the Russians despatched an ultimatum to Solomon, demanding that he hand over the heir to his throne and other Imeretian notables as hostages, and reside permanently under Russian surveillance in his capital atKutaisi. Solomon refused, and was declared to have forfeited his throne. Hounded by Russian troops and by Georgian princes hostile to him, he sought refuge in the hills, but was soon captured and escorted to Tbilisi. A few weeks later, Solomon staged a dramatic escape from Russian custody, and took refuge with the Turkish pasha at the frontier city of Akhaltsikhe. Inspired by this daring feat, the people of Imereti rose against the Russian invaders. Ten fierce engagements were fought between the Russian forces and the guerillas of Imereti. Famine and plague broke out, and some 30,000 people perished, while hundreds of peasant families sought refuge in Eastern Georgia. Eventually the patriots were crushed by armed force. A Russian administration was set up in Kutaisi, the country placed under martial law."

Well, well, well, looks like you Abkhazians were sucking up to the Russians well prior to the Georgians in places like Imereti, Guria, Racha, Svaneti.

No surprises there.


In Response

by: Anonymous
August 18, 2010 15:48
But wait, there is more:

The Georgians continued revolting, while the Apsu collaborated with Russia.

But there is more:

"The revolt of 1812

In 1812, the Persians won some military successes against the Russians in the Karabagh region. When they heard of the Russian setback, the peasants of Kakheti broke into revolt. They wiped out the garrison of Sighnaghi and blockaded Telavi, the capital town of Kakheti. The insurgents proclaimed as king the young Bagratid prince, Grigol, son of Prince Ioane, and grandson of the late King Giorgi XII. In answer to an ultimatum addressed to them by the Russian commanderin-chief, Marquis Philip Paulucci, the rebels replied:

‘We know how few we are compared with the Russians, and have no hope of beating them. We wish rather that they would exterminate us. We sought the protection of the Russian Tsar, God gave it to us, but the injustices and cruelty of his servants have driven us to despair. We suffered long! And now, when the Lord has sent us this terrible famine, when we ourselves are eating roots and grass, you violently seize food and forage from us! We have been expelled from our homes. Our storerooms and cellars have been plundered, our stocks of wine uncovered, drunk up and wantonly polluted by the gorged soldiery. Finally our wives and daughters have been defiled before our eyes. How can our lives be dear to us after such ignominy? We are guilty before God and the Russian Tsar of steeping our hands in Christian blood, but God knows that we never plotted to betray the Russians. We were driven to this by violence, and have resolved to die on the spot. We have no hope of pardon, for who will reveal our condition to the emperor? Do we not remember that when we called on the Tsar’s name, our rulers would answer: God is on high, the emperor far away.’ 28

The rebellion spread like wildfire."

As for the Abkhaz, they indeed helped the Russians against their Circassian brothers:

"The Russians were now able to subjugate Abkhazia, the autonomous principality situated immediately north-west of Mingrelia along the Black Sea coastline. It will be recalled that the Lord of Abkhazia, Safar Bey or Giorgi Sharvashidze, had been received under Russian protection as long ago as 1809, and confirmed in perpetual possession of his domains. In the intervening period, Abkhazia had been frequently involved in the Russian campaigns against the Circassians, with whom the Abkhaz, many of them Muslims, had cultural, ethnic and linguistic connexions. During the Crimean War, the Turks stirred up the Abkhaz against Russia at the time of null Omar Pasha’s invasion of Mingrelia. Turkish envoys who arrived at the Abkhazian capital, Sukhumi, found the ruling dynasty of theSharvashidzes divided: the Christian princes adhered to the Russian interest, but Iskander (Alexander), a Muslim, was prepared to help the Turks in return for permission to annex the neighbouring Mingrelian district of Samurzaqano."

Well, looky here, Samurzaqano (from Gali up to Sokhumi) was part of Mingrelia long before Stalin, and before the Circassian genocide, what a surprise.

So why do you insist on claiming land that is rightfully Georgian?

Are the Apsua mini imperialists?

In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 18, 2010 19:29

Dear Rasto, Andrew, Anonymous,

So, David Marshall Lang was a ‘REAL HISTORIAN, was he? In fact, he graduated from St. John’s College (Cambridge) with a modern languages’ degree (in Russian and German). As a talented linguist, he was offered one of the UK’s post-war Foreign Office Scholarships to take up an oriental language, after 6 years of studying which such select individuals were promised an academic appointment. Lang duly took up a lectureship at London University’s School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), where he ended his career as a professor, having written a series of popularising books, some of which dealt with history. By the way, readers of this exchange might like to learn that he was eventually castigated in Georgia as a ‘traitor’ (no doubt for writing positively about the Armenians).

I cannot be certain which text Lang will have used as source for his statement that Samurzakano belonged to Mingrelia, but it is likely to have been a Georgian source, presenting the standard pro-Georgian view of the history of that disputed region and its inhabitants. Simply because Lang said that is was so does not mean that it was indeed so. For a discussion of the ethnicity of the Samurzakanons, based on much more data and a deeper investigation than Lang would have conducted, see Daniel Muller's ‘Ethno-demographic history of Abkhazia, 1886 – 1989’ http://abkhazworld.com/Pdf/d.muller.pdf

Well done Solomon and the others who stood up from time to time to Russian domination! This does not alter the fact that it was Georgia which gave Russia its FIRST foothold south of the Caucasian mountains, or that Georgians fought alongside Russians in their decades-long subjugation of the north Caucasian mountaineers. There might well have been Abkhazians too who fought alongside Russians on occasions (for a contemporary account see James S. Bell’s ‘Journal of a Residence in Circassia in the years 1837, 1838, 1839’), but, when the war ended finally in 1864, how many Georgians were forced into exile as were most of the Circassians, most of the Abkhazians, and ALL the Ubykhs for their resistance to the Tsar? And after the Likhni revolt against the local Russian administrators and their ideas for land-reform in 1866, it was the Abkhazians who then had to endure the stigma of being branded a ‘guilty nation’, with all that that entailed by way of deprivation of rights. This status was lifted only in 1907, by which time much of the mingrelianisation of the Abkhazian residents of Samurzakano was well advanced.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 18, 2010 19:32
Continue

One can find quotes from distinguished individuals in a variety of fields who, on the basis of a the most casual acquaintance with this or that country or this or that tyrant, go home and compose panegyrics of the said country/tyrant for which history tends to judge them harshly (George Bernard Shaw, Nobel Laureate for Literature, who praised Stalin’s Russia to the skies in the 1930s, was one such, and many more recent examples could be quoted — former Labour Junior Minister for Europe, Denis MacShane, comes to mind as a parallel to Ramsay Macdonald for his recent, ignorance-based praise of Saakashvili’s Georgia in The Guardian Online).

When it comes to Georgia’s Menshevik period, I think it might be useful to quote a contemporary visitor who made the acquaintance of a man whose love for Georgia and all things Georgian, Oliver Wardrop, and who adduced an interesting comment of Wardrop’s thinking. AGAIN; here is what Carl Bechhofer wrote in his book ‘In Denikin’s Russia’: ‘‘The free and independent Social-Democratic government of Georgia will ever remain in my memory as a classical example of an imperialistic minor nationality both in relation to its seizure of territory to within its own borders and in relation to the bureaucratic tyranny inside the state. Its chauvinism exceeds the highest limits’’ (1921.14). Of the Georgian character in general he observed: ‘Individually, the Georgians are charming people...They are natural poets. But the qualities that make the Georgian a delightful companion do not necessarily fit him for statesmanship and citizenship. Be this as it may, I am sorry to say that the record of the Georgian Government, in its two years’ existence in the Transcaucasus, has been marred by nearly every fault that a State can commit. Chauvinism has run riot. And it has gone hand in hand with a vindictive persecution of the Russians in Georgia, by way of emphasising the highly disputable asseveration of Georgian ultra-patriots that Georgia was persecuted by the Russians in pre-Revolutionary days’ (1921.41-2). According to Bechhofer, even the noted proponent of the Georgian language and Georgian studies in the UK, (later Sir) Oliver Wardrop, then British diplomatic representative in Transcaucasia, came to feel disappointment at Georgian behaviour: ‘I went to the British Commission, and saw Mr Oliver Wardrop, our High Commissioner, whom I had met once or twice in London. He was very amiable, and told me how, in his opinion, matters stood in the Transcaucasus. I was not much surprised to find that he took an extremely pro-Georgian view of affairs. He and his late sister [Marjory] have done more to make Georgia and Georgian literature known in England than ony one else. Both in Batum and Armenia I found people who were scandalised that a gentleman of such pronounced views should be appointed to a position which called for considerable intellectual disinterestedness, since Georgians were only one of the rival elements in the Transcaucasus. I felt safe in answering that Mr. Wardrop would certainly never consciously allow himself to be biased by Georgian propaganda; it was not for some months, however, that he appeared to discover how grossly the Georgian Government was disappointing his hopes for it’ (1921.48-9).
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 18, 2010 19:34
The End:

And if there is still any interest in Lang’s opinions, here is another one: ‘It would of course be wrong to idealize the Georgian character. Every medal has its reverse. In many Georgians, quick wit is matched by a quick temper, and a proneness to harbour rancour. The bravery associated with heroes like Prince Bagration, an outstanding general of the Napoleonic wars, is matched by the cruelty and vindictiveness found in such individuals as Stalin and Beria’ (1962.20). Sadly, it is a shade of the latter trait that is all too apparent in the arrant nonsense and outright abuse that Georgian contributors to websites and blogs produce in the absence of sound argumentation, and in behaving in this way they seem blissfully unaware of the irreparable harm they are doing to the reputation of their country.

Oh, and again from the 'real historian' David Lang, who described events in South Ossetia during Menshevik times as follows: ‘A peasant uprising had already occurred in South Ossetia in 1918 and been suppressed with great severity by the Menshevik People’s Guard commanded by Jaliko Jugheli...A Russian-sponored Ossete force crossed the border from Vladikavkaz in June 1920 and attacked the Georgian Army and People’s Guard. The Georgians reacted with vigour and defeated the insurgents and their supporters in a series of hard-fought battles. Five thousand people perished in the fighting and 20,000 Ossetes fled into Soviet Russia. The Georgian People’s Guard displayed a frenzy of chauvinistic zeal during the mopping-up operations, many villages being burnt to the ground and large areas of fertile land ravaged and depopulated’ (1962.228-9)

Enough?

Further reading

DECLARATION OF THE REVOLUTIONARY COMMITTEE OF THE SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF GEORGIA ON INDEPENDENCE OF THE SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF ABKHAZIA.
http://www.rrc.ge/law/declar_1921_05_21_e.htm?lawid=112&lng_3=en

Iz Istorii Srednevekovoy Abkhazii (VI - XVII. Veka.) Z. B. Anchabadze, 1959
http://www.circassianworld.com/Books/Anchabadze_1959.pdf
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
August 19, 2010 07:03
Metin
When one of the two debating parties are losing links and not taking into account popints brought by second party it is tyime to sign off. Thsi debate has no sense anymore. There were commenst posted on to this debate explaining that in certain time nations living in Caucasus behaved very simmilar way, I do not see different value between local uprisings of Georgians aagainst Russians and fight of local Circassian tribes against Russians same as I do not see differnce between Abkhaz nobility collaboration with Russians and Georgian nobility collaboration with Russia. The difference lays in religious aspects and fact that large part of Muslim population of Abkhazia and Georgia had to flee to Turkey during and after Circassian and Turkish wars.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 19, 2010 11:41
Dear Rasto,

''No one is more blind than the one who does not want to see.''

In Response

by: Boris from: London
August 20, 2010 08:56
Dear Rasto, Andrew, Anonimous,

This Metin guy definitely has the personal reasons to hate everything Georgian. I could guess exactly what kind, but RFERL probably will not publish it here. I've seen many of the kind in Russia. I know their mindset. There is no sence in talking to them.

And clearly there is no need for all of us to justify actions of state of Georgia in one or another historical period, before some uneducated russian agent.
This guy may be Circassian by origin, but has nothing to do with his proud ancesstors, who bravely chalanged an empire. Its so hard for him to say something agains the Russians.

Leave him in peace.
In Response

by: Boris from: London
August 20, 2010 09:17
Metin,

As I told youe earlier, stop discussing Georgia. I'm ready to discuss wtith you current and historical issues of norht causacian resisstance to Russian empire. Casuaty figures (on both sides) in Chechnya, current chances of success etc. Prospects of Russian democratisation, possibilities to reform and impications to for the caucasus. KGB methods of infiltration and propaganda, methods of stirring trouble between historicaly friendly nations in the caucasus...
If you want talk about these issues, would be hapy to.
In Response

by: Metin from: Ankara
August 20, 2010 15:29
Dear Boris,

As i see the TRUTH HURT you - AS USUAL. I think your ''real historian(s)'' couldn't save you. Perhaps you should read and learn more. But this is not enough. You should also ''THINK.'' I know it's difficult for you but you can try.

By the way, can you do something different except -ABSURD- ACCUSATIONS? Can you do more of it?

I think you and Andrew entertainment to readers. And me too, of course. Please read what you said and what i said -- AGAIN and AGAIN, again and again. Perhaps then you will understand. Not all... But some of it...

Because; No one is more blind than the one who does not want to see.
In Response

by: Anonymous
August 20, 2010 18:04
>> Dr. Laurent Vinatier says so: ''Abkhaz independence reminds me of the Chechen Ichkerian struggle. Europeans should understand that, viewed from the Caucasus, Abkhaz and Chechen (national) fights for independence are absolutely not in contradiction.'' [Reflections on the Caucasus: 21 May 1864-2010]

good point!

Boris, independence for Chechnya and Circassia but why not for Abkhazia?
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