Saturday, May 26, 2012


Commentary

In Croatia, One Step Forward, Two Steps Back

In Zagreb, a woman holds a newspaper with a portrait of General Ante Gotovina over the word "hero" as she watches the verdict in The Hague.
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By Anes Alic
Croatia (along with its neighbors) has long had difficulty accepting the wartime atrocities committed by its forces during the Balkan conflicts of the 1990s. But the recent reaction of the Croatian public to sentences handed down to two retired Croatian generals -- still viewed by some as heroes -- was indeed out of all proportion.

Earlier this month, judges at The Hague found Croatian wartime generals Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markac guilty of atrocities -- including the persecution and murder of more than 300 ethnic Croatian Serbs -- and sentenced them to 24 and 18 years in prison, respectively. The crimes occurred during and after the August 1995 Croatian military operation “Storm,” the intent of which was to recapture a key area held by Serb rebels. A third defendant, Ivan Cermak, was acquitted of the same charges.

In its ruling, the court said that the convicted generals “were part of a joint criminal enterprise whose objective was the permanent removal of the Serb population from the Krajina region." The verdict also said that the wartime Croatian president, the late Franjo Tudjman, was a key member of this so-called joint criminal enterprise.

This sentencing was devastating to a large part of the Croatian population, which considers the two generals to be heroes of the war and the country’s liberators. The response was colorful, telling, and self-destructive. Demobilized soldiers took to cutting themselves with razors and teenagers donned Ustasha outfits from the World War II era, protesting against The Hague tribunal and the European Union. At protests across the country, posters with pictures of two wartime generals, Branimir Glavas and Mirko Norac, both convicted of war crimes, and Bosnian Croat leader Dario Kordic, also sentenced for war crimes, were on display.

Unacceptable To Croatian Public

The Croatian government continues to maintain that Operation Storm was justifiable on the grounds that a sovereign state has the right to take control of its own territory, apparently by any means. The court, however, disagreed, essentially sending Croatia a message that its decisive victory during the war and the sealing of its independent statehood was a criminal act. This, of course, is unacceptable to both the Croatian authorities and the public. Indeed, in a survey conducted prior to the verdict, only 50 percent of Croatians believed that the three would be convicted; and no one expected that the entire wartime government would be implicated in a “criminal enterprise."

Rather than accept that this military victory came at the unacceptable cost of civilian lives, internal displacement, and destruction, the Croatian government has chosen to form a team of “experts” to help Gotovina and Markac appeal the verdict. This is likely to raise more than a few international eyebrows and could slow the country’s EU membership aspirations, at a time when Zagreb is making significant progress and has indeed been the shining example of Western Balkan stability. A red carpet welcome was given to Cermak, who was acquitted, and met personally by Croatian Prime Minister Jadranka Kosor at the Zagreb airport upon his release from custody in The Hague.

What has happened, primarily, is that both the public and the government have pressured each other into overreacting. The Croatian authorities’ situation is not an easy one, squeezed as they are on one side by nationalists and war veterans supported by a powerful Catholic Church that is not averse to dabbling in politics, and on the other side by Brussels, which expects Zagreb to face up to the crimes committed by the Croatian military.

Balancing Act

With the country gearing up for competitive parliamentary elections later this year, the pressure for politicians to express their patriotism will be ever greater. Managing this balancing act between EU integration and jingoism is a formidable challenge, and it’s not clear at this point if Zagreb is up to the task. At the same time, its own reaction to the situation has provoked even greater public outrage. 

Despite these simmering tensions, the international media’s headline-teasing predictions of a new war are an overreaction.
Regardless of the sentiments, these are the facts: Around 250,000 Croatian Serbs left Krajina within a few days in early August 1995, having made up the majority of the population in the region since the 18th century. Operation Storm, ordered by Tudjman, began with heavy shelling of the area, which forced many Serbs to flee to Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. In total, Operation Storm resulted in the deaths of between 1,600 and 2,200 people, mostly civilians, and the creation of nearly 230,000 Serb refugees. The majority of the population continues to live in exile in Serbia, Montenegro. and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

The prewar census of 1991 was the last Yugoslav census held in Croatia, when around 580,000 citizens declared themselves Serbs, comprising around 12 percent of the population. Today, this figure is around 4 percent.

There is the other side of this story, in which Croatian Serbs rebelled against Croatia’s much-desired independence and found backing in Belgrade -- a move for which the vast majority of Croats still cannot forgive their Serb countrymen. As such, those Croatian Serbs who have been bold enough to return to the country are often viewed as intruders rather than citizens.

Media Overreaction

For their wartime role, The Hague has indicted the leaders of Croatian Serbs for crimes committed against Croats. Milan Martic, who held various leadership positions in the short-lived Republic of Serbian Krajina, including president, defense minister, and interior minister, was sentenced in 2007 to 35 years in prison. Another president of the rebel region, Milan Babic, was sentenced to 13 years in prison but was found dead in his Hague prison cell in March 2006. He was the first indicted Balkan war criminal to admit guilt and accept a plea bargain with the prosecution. His cooperation resulted in the presentation of evidence in several other cases, including the one against Martic, former Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic, and several others. A third president of Republic of Serbian Krajina, Goran Hadzic, was indicted by The Hague but remains at large, along with former Bosnian Serb military leader Ratko Mladic. All three lived in Serbia following the fall of their rebel republic.

Despite these simmering tensions, the international media’s headline-teasing predictions of a new war are an overreaction. What is likely to happen now? Perhaps the creation of a national Operation Storm celebration day, or a few more streets named after heroes-war criminals. But not another conflict, despite the Western media’s sensationalist predictions.

Serbs can be expected to react in their turn, and there will be more protests. However, nothing much is expected to change, either on the domestic political scene or even with regard to cooperation between the governments of Serbia and Croatia, which has strengthened significantly as of late. The situation will gradually cool down and business will resume as usual. This is par for the course in the recent history of the Western Balkans.

As a side effect of the Gotovina and Markac verdicts, several other questions are surfacing, including whether Croatian authorities will be obligated to pay compensation to the Serbs, or to grant them special rights in Croatia, and, most importantly, whether Tudjman -- viewed by many as the father of Croatia -- will be diminished in status.  

Support For Accession Drops

The verdicts could prompt the EU to step up pressure on Croatia to improve its own war-crimes prosecution and protection of minority rights, but these are already major goals of Brussels. The EU has been carefully following Croatia’s reactions to The Hague verdicts, and the continuation of Croatia’s cooperation with the international court will certainly remain a condition for Zagreb’s accession.

Croatia hopes to complete EU accession talks in the coming months and hold a referendum on membership in the union soon afterward. A recent poll. however, shows that public support for accession has dropped to 50 percent, the lowest ever. And it is possible that this anti-EU sentiment will increase even more as the Croatian authorities, in order to complete the membership process, are obliged to conduct some very unpopular reforms, including widescale privatization. One of these privatization projects entails the closure of five shipyards that employ some 25,000 people. The shipyards are a particularly sore point and all previous attempts to privatize them have failed.  They now operate only thanks to hefty state subsidies.

Furthermore, the rights of the Serb minority in Croatia must be secured before Croatia can hope to join the EU. The international community offers constant criticism on this note, accusing Zagreb of holding back on cooperation with war-crimes investigations and for its failure to adequately address refugee repatriation and minority rights. The ICTY’s verdict against the Croatian generals is likely to contribute to anti-EU sentiment, as will the announcement that several other war crimes cases against Croatian officials will be opened. Both incumbent leaders and the opposition will likely attempt to nip this overly patriotic fervor in the bud by focusing their election campaign efforts on the benefits of EU accession, particularly the long-term economic ones.

As it takes steps to bring the Western Balkan countries into its fold, the EU is first and foremost concerned with regional relations and continues to dump billions of euros into crossborder projects aimed at creating lasting economic cooperation. Unfortunately, just when relations appear to be improving (particularly between Croatia and Serbia, thanks to bold steps taken by the Serbian and Croatian presidents to acknowledge the victims of both sides in Vukovar, for instance) there is another setback. But the protests in Zagreb are for public consumption and are not taken as seriously by officials as they are by the media. For everyone knows what is at stake: a European future, the only future that is viable.

Anes Alic is the Sarajevo-based executive director of ISA Intel, a senior analyst for ISN Security Watch, and a contributor to Oxford Analytica. The views expressed in this commentary are the author's own and do not necessarily reflect those of RFE/RL
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by: Branko Miletic from: Australia
May 01, 2011 11:49
In London there is a statue to a guy who ordered the mass bombing of Dresden in February 1945 by which time everyone knew the Germans had lost the war - an act that killed some 150,000 civilians.

So 'Bomber' Harris gets a statue in his honour in central London for the mass killing of 150,000 people, while General Gotovina gets 24 years because a couple of hundred Serbs died in the legitimate retaking of Croatia's territory, which was lost due to a war the Serbs themselves started, and in a war propagated by Europe which tried to do everything in its power to not intervene.

And the West is perplexed as to why the Arabs hate them so much--perhaps this is why -- an example of the gut-wrenching hypocrisy that we have to suffer whilst the like of the US, UK and France do as they please around the globe.
In Response

by: Raymond from: Australia
May 02, 2011 01:54
The Croatian's did not legitimately retake Croatia. Croatia government at the time led by Tudjman a staunch fascist decided to push for independance without listening to a serb population of 12% at the time and without consequences which would unfold. Croatia was a part of Yugolsavia. The serbs in the Krajina region had every right then to gain independance from a region declaring independance from Yugoslavia.
In Response

by: Branko from: Australia
May 02, 2011 08:29
Raymond (or is that Rajko?) --- Tudjman was a Fascist?--- really??-- the youngest ever Communist Yugo Partizan general and a close ally of Tito is now a fascist? And what country in the world would listen to 12% of its population over the other 88%?--certainly not Australia....not the US, nor the UK, France or Burkina Faso for that matter...would Serbia listen to the 12% of its population that are Hungarians?...i doubt it---did Serbia 'listen' to the 19% of its population that were Albanians when they wanted freedom?--no it just decided to slaughter them en masse.

And no matter how much you want to convince yourself of a so-called 'Krajina' region, it wont float-- you may as well believe in pixies at the bottom of the garden. Countries cant be invented over a long lunch like corporations.

So if the Serb minority in HR should be given their 'freedom', then by your logic the Albanians in Kosovo-Metohija, Presevo- Bujanovac, the Hungarians of northern Backa and Romanians of eastern Banat and Bulgarians of southern Serbia should also be allowed to leave Serbia right? And lets not forget the Muslims of Sandzak-- I suppose you will agree they too deserve their own mini-Statelet. How about the Croats of Srijem- can they go free as well?

Oh sorry I forgot the 'Golden Rule' of the Balkans- that there is one rule for Serbs and another for everyone else....which is why there was a war BTW.
In Response

by: Ivan from: Sydney
May 02, 2011 08:43
I am truly bewildered by this comment Raymond, that Croatia did not have the right to retake Croatia as an independent nation. Croatia was internationally recognized on 15 January 1992 by the European Union and subsequently the United Nations. The Serb armies should have gone back home then, but they persisted with the war and were the only army to fight to keep communism together when it had fallen in the whole of europe. Europe should never forget this that Serbs are no friends of Europe.
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
May 02, 2011 19:47
Het dude, Franjo Tudjman were offering wide autonomy to all Serbs in Krajina Srpska, these peopel di not wanted anything else just separation and taking away part of Croatian land. Taking into account about 200 000 Croatian refugges that had to flee the separatistic region and death of Croatian civils I woudl say Croatians had a lot of patience before they launched Operation storm. On th etop of that there is a video on toutube where Ante Gotovina talks gto his lower ranked officers and requests and stresses need of regular and lawful acts. I have red somewhere that paramilitants entered Krajina together with Croats and they were responsible for majority of civilian deaths. Taking into account reaction of Croatian government I believe that last word was not said there.
In Response

by: Denis Lucin from: sydney
May 03, 2011 04:02
the whole story is a bunch of biased unbalanced dribble and you can say what you like about it.you feel that croatia didnt listen enough to the 12% of serbs in its territory.the serb theory was "where a serb boot stands its serbian soil",but for serbs this theory apparently does not stand in kosovo for albanians,did Milosevic take much time to listen to the albanians in kosovo?,should they be able to break away here on serbian territory?
In Response

by: Raymond from: Australia
May 03, 2011 01:17
Branko (or it it Adolf) - Are you kidding all of us! Tudjman WAS at a young age a Partizan, BUT as we all know turned out to be a bigger facist and war criminal then anyone in the Balkans and its better off that he is dead! So what your saying about the 12% and if anyone would listen then Yugoslavia did not have to listen to the Croatian population that wanted to secede from Yugoslavia! You are being a hypocrite in that sense. The Yugoslav army with 'Croatian' personel in their ranks defended the rights of those in a part of Yugoslavia against the brutal regime of the Croatian Ustasha!

So beieive what you want the fact out of all of this is that conservatively 250,000 people of serb origin were driven out by Croatia forces loyal to Tudjman with the backing of the US and german Military.

You are brainwashed into believing what you want to hear. What would you say if someone decided to take away your house in Australia and tell you that you are now living in a Serbian State? I would think you would fight for your rights!

I suggest you watch a documentary Weight of Chains showing true facts on outside influence which led to the breakup of what was once a prosperous nation where people lived with each other no matter race or religion to a state now where Croatia is a puppet state of the US and a national debt of over $50billion dollars where their major industry Tourism is owned by a majority of Austrian / German countries and where Croatia is in so much debt they are looking at selling Brijuni Island! Ask most Croatians if they are better of now? probably not
In Response

by: Slava
May 03, 2011 11:55
RFE/RL continues to be comparatively soft on non-Serb extremism among former Yugoslavs.

There has yet to be any posted RFE/RL articles which directly and/or suggestively ridicules the Croat Catholic church officials who likened the indicted Croats to Jesus.

In Response

by: Slava
May 03, 2011 12:23
Checkout Miss Croatia:

http://www.bh-news.com/en/vijest_det.php?vid=3138&r=4

Some can be forgiven for not knowing about it, given that RFE/RL didn't seem to consider this story to be such a worthy news item. As someone wryly commented:

If the arrests of other such Croatians are any lesson, there’ll be noticeable demonstrations on the streets of Zagreb, Rijeka, etc. demanding the release of their ‘war veteran who fought valiantly for her homeland’. See also: http://www.slavorum.com/index.php?topic=317.0 . As for the ‘war veterans’ of yesteryear, the likes of Artukovic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrija_Artukovi%C4%87 lived to a ripe old age in USA or elsewhere in the West before being finally extradited after many years.

Regarding what actually happened at Dubrovnik:

http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Yugoslav-Conflict-1991-1995/product-reviews/0415357055/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

An excellent site which is different from the RFE/RL propaganda line:

http://balkanstudies.org

The Bosnian Serb position has a similarity to the minority western portion of Virginia breaking from the rest of Virginia’s decision to separate from the United States. Hence, the coming about of West Virginia as a state.

The origin of the Bosnian Civil War relates to the Bosnian Serb position of not wanting to break away from an existing state (Yugoslavia). Note the bogus pro-multiethnic BS spewed to the West by Bosnian Muslim nationalists. If they truly believe in such, they would’ve chosen to remain in what was still a very multiethnic state – instead of seeking to create an entity where they would stand to have greater clout.

If the Serbs were so evil and the Bosnian Muslim nationalists so innocent, there would be no need to grossly exaggerate and in some instances completely lie about atrocities committed. Among some other sources, Savo Heleta's book brings into play this point. There's also the matter of Bosnian Muslims who opposed Izetbegovic by siding with Croats and Serbs against him.

Some good articles on Bosnia that are the opposite of what RFE/RL prefers:

http://nationalinterest.org/node/4190

http://www.transconflict.com/2010/12/bosniak-nationalism-the-end-of-exceptionalism-912/


In Response

by: PCK from: Sydney
May 04, 2011 11:16
@Branko, Get your facts in order.
Firstly before any shots were fired, Serbs were being taken to the local cop shops on rumours of Sniping, while their apartments were immediately occupied by by Croats in Zagreb, Google it fool, go past Croatia was right.com websites written by Croats abroad.
Secondly, Serbs suffered mass sackings from their workplaces all because of their ethnicity, with no income many were forced to leave to relatives in villages just to EAT.
Thirdly, Serbs were stripped of their constituent peoples rights ala Ustasa regime WW2, these events coupled with previous persecutions lead to the Serbs taking up arms.
Fourthly, diplomacy was scuttled deliberatly by Tudjman who was eager to play David against Goliath with the lives of many innocent Croats and Serbs just google Boljkovac (Croat police minister) and his testimony Tudjman started the war at all costs.

Now we see the pre war events that started conflict, lets see those that ended it.

Croats attacked Krajina, Krajina forces had all their equipment locked up in UN compounds as part of the UN peace deal and not in defensive positions. Croats crossed UN lines it signed in it's internationaly recognised peace treaty, an unlawful action. It cleansed those Serbs that stayed behind such as the elderly and invalid, they were killed systematicly. The Un, human rights agencies have all criticised Croatia's actions of burning property, inhabiting stolen property as part of and rightly so in reports as part of a Government orchastrated plot to wipe the Serb presence from the Former Yugoslav republic of Croatia.

With so perceived "rights" some Croats repeat, their becomes no such thing as the word wrong. But only in some Croat minds.

In Response

by: Branko from: Australia
May 04, 2011 21:55
Much like the jihadis, serb extremists think they can commit whatever crime they want and in their minds, its always someone else's fault- but God forbid if people defend themselves against serb aggression- that of course makes those people 'evil' in the minds of serbs.

Moreover, whatever atrocity serbs commit, somehow in their own minds there is always some lame quasi-historical excuse for it.

Ironically also similar to jihadis, who talk bout the crusades as if they occurred last week, serbs talk about the battle of kosovo as if it was fought yesterday rather than 1389.

Also eerily similar to the likes of Al- Qaeda, is the fact that the biggest enemy of serb fascism is not other people's fascism, but democracy and equality- something that they hate more than anything.

You know, I think its time Croatia adopted the official policy of treating serbs the exact same way as they have treated everyone else in former Yu--- now thats fair isin't it?

We should treat the serbs just like they treated us since 1918 or just like they treated the Albanians in 1913 and 1999 or the ethnic Danubian Germans in 1944-48-- do unto others as they do unto you is a good moral compass for the balkans.

by: mario from: USA
May 01, 2011 12:48
The only crime bigger than the war crime is the post war one, for which the aggressor is absolved.

The EU "HAGUE" is nothing more then a club of hypocritical european whores. By bringing up the issue of “aggressor and the victim”, on the same defendant`s bench. By bringing up Slobodan Milosevic, Radovan Karadzic and Ante Gotovina on the same defendant`s bench was “tasteless in relation to values of the western civilisation. The Hague and Radio Free Europ and Anes Alic, Serbs. HAGU has finally shown its true face regarding its policy toward Croatia and this face is an ugly and racist one. I was there at the time and saw it. I was in Zagreb when the Serbs airforce was bombarding the city. I saw the victims of Serbs White Eagles (Beli orlovi) in Vocin. I was the first to meet those who had escaped death when the Serbs murdered patients and medical staff at the Vukovar hospital. It was a very desperate time when one of Europe's largest armies and its murderous auxiliaries were terrorizing Croatia. I even remember wondering out loud when the EU, UN and US in the Adriatic would intervene to stop the killing. Croats used shotguns and dynamite to try to oppose an overwhelming Serbs superiority in soldiers, MiGs, tanks and helicopter gunships. It was a desperate time when the Serbs laid siege to towns and villages and Serb militiamen in Chetnik costume moved in to murder old people with axes and used chain saws to dismember captured Croats at places like Vocin, Vukovar… During the 90-95 war the EU and the UN allowed the Serbs to get away with mass murder for years. When the US finally ended the Serbs' genocide project, Ante Gotovina and the Croatian Army were the primary instruments.

Supported by the United States, Gen. Gotovina led a sweeping military offensive — known as Operation Storm — that enabled Croatia to restore its control over territories annexed by local Serb forces loyal to Yugoslav dictator Slobodan Milosevic. The operation not only was instrumental in preventing Mr. Milosevic from achieving his goal of a "Greater Serbia," but it also averted a humanitarian nightmare in neighboring Bosnia. American intelligence and defense officials know that Ante Gotovina committed no war crimes. But in order to defend him they would have to disclose the extent of U.S. involvement as well as get into a position where the declassified truth might very well embarrass their British cousins. Let there be no doubt, Serbia is guilt as sin of the massacre at Vukovar, Dubrovnik Croatia and Srebrenica. One must ask, who committed the greater crime—the perpetrators Serbian murderers or International Community those who ignore it and enable such aggression.
In Response

by: Sinisa from: Australia
May 02, 2011 02:02
Very racist comments. You have a one sided memory of accounts in the region. The country was Yugoslavia, where no matter what your race was they lived in prosperity compared to most other parts of the world. The west provided millions of dollars to Croatian politicians to arm themselves and push for independance. The serb population who in WW2 were persercuted by the Ustasha regime which made the Nazi's look like angels were again faced with a similar fete. The Yugoslav government and army had every right to protect citizens who came under fire from the Croatian Ustasha and protect its borders which i might add included the republic of Croatia. Your comments are laughable as they are one sided.
In Response

by: john from: USA
May 03, 2011 01:07
I am amazed that the ONLY argument used by Serbs still today is WW2. Guess what Croatia had Ustase and Srbia Cetniks - they were both bad. And guess what WW@ sucked for most people in and out of YU. And also-Anti fashist movment started in CROATIA and also Tito was Croatian and furthermore Tudjman was his aide! Let's also not forget the fact that belgrade milked the rest of YU for 50 years. So stop the 70-year old story, accept the blame and national shame for killing and attacking innocent people throughout former YU and let's move on. You guys are like a woman that keeps bitching and doesn't want a divorce. Instaed apologize to your neighbor, go plant a tree and donate some money to the Srebrenica fund. And finally, drum roll please- the YUGO constitution specified each republic right to independence!!! And the number in Crotia was 94% BTW. Look it up.
In Response

by: Sinisa from: Australia
May 03, 2011 06:21
John from USA, the argument that the serbs used regarding atrocities that went on in WW2 sounds very valid. History is behind us but never forgotten. How about you Croatians take it on the chin that your generals were murderers apologize to the serbs and move on! Im happy for the serbs to donate money to Srebrenica are you happy to donate money to the Krajina Serbs? Drum roll..waiting for answer. Yugoslavian constitution did not give each repuplic right to independance. Cosntitution gave eavery republic to autonomous rule ie they had a very big say in what went on within their borders. If whatever propaganda your saying was right then why didnt each republic declare independance immediately? Double kick drum roll!!!
In Response

by: john from: USA
May 03, 2011 18:27
Sinisa, as a matter of fact the Croatian president did apologize to all innocent Serbs who were harmed during the war. And I totally agree that attrocities on all sides, and across the world always must be punished.
About Srebrenica, you can't compare mass murder/concentration camps with solitary incidents by individuals (again not diminishing individual, they are all terrible, but numbers are numbers). Plus you can not forget who started this war, that it was NEVER fought on Serbian territory (until NATO bombed it). And no double drum roll, the constitution of YU specifically defined the right for independence of each state (read it it is very clear) following a referendum vote (94% for it), so within YU Croatia and Slovenia, and all others (including Serbia's close ally Montenegro) finally and legally opted for independence. Also, let's not forget that Tudjman first approached Belgrade with a proposal for a CO-Federation, which belgrade/Milosevic turned dow, effectively forcing the referendum. I know you can't see it, but growing up in Croatia, everything was domainted from belgrade, from the military to the police, diplomacy (why do you think serbia has so many supporters still Internationally- because most diplomats were Serbs) and the federal budget. And Croatia just didn't want to be milked, that's all. Nobody hated anyone, Milosevich started the hate by attacking...I remember women putting flowers on Serbian = YU tanks leaving for Zagreb. You guys just need to take responsibility and accept that Belgrade=Milosevic manipulated all of you guys into believing that Croatians hate Serbs and such nonsense. His aggression cause this big mess. Let me remind you that NOT ONE orthodox church on Croatian territory was damaged during the entire war...so much for hatred. Denial is not healthy. You need to heal as a people and as a nation and grow, otherwise you will forever be perceived as barbaric, primitive and violent.
In Response

by: Slava
May 03, 2011 21:31
John, USA

You give an inaccurate view of the Serb position and reality.

This has been substantiated by some other comments at this thread.
Feel free to provide a direct reply to them.

BTW, note that Communist Yugoslavia didn't make Krajina an autonomous zone within Croatia, unlike what was done with Kosovo and Vojvodina vis-a-vis Serbia.

The claim the Serbia "milked" (sic) others is BS.
In Response

by: Sinisa from: Australia
May 04, 2011 12:39
To John from USA, first you must accept that Croatian government and military are no Angels and that your high ranking military leader at the time Gotovina is gotovo! and a war criminal.

Second now i know you spin a lot of lies!

I don't have enough time to list every chucrh, monastery or village destroyed , bulldozed and raised to the ground.

1. Bjelovar church of Descent of Holy Spirit b1784..destroyed 1992
2. Donja Rasenica - Church of Holy Virgin b1709 estroyed 1992
3. ZAGREB!!! DESTRUCTION OF ORTHODOX ARCHDIOCESE b1886
4. Staro Selo Church of St Nicholas - raised and croatian army bulldozing the cemetary to leave no trace of existence
5. Smokovic Church of St George 1567..destroyed to the foundations. smokovic village every serbian house destroyed
6. Zadar St Elias b1773 demolished
7. Osijek Holy Virgin - destroyed
The list goes on and on and on...

John, before you write any more of the facts from John..i suggest you do some research..

My village was Smokovic, 99% serbian orthodox population. a lovely village peaceful, until the croatian army and THUGS with their guns to our heads telling us to leave immediately and that there will not be one serb left in Croatia! Srebrenica was setup by Izetbegovic. He was told and this is a fact from Holbrooke that if 5,000 muslims were killed that would be the number that the US would need to enter the war. Don't get me started on Tudjman saying that the serbs from Krajina left without there underwear..may he rot in hell and Gotovina in jail!
In Response

by: Ante from: Croatia
May 06, 2011 15:50
Has any of you ever been in Croatia? This "BIG CROATS" and croatian voters from outside have put us into a shitty situation...what want to say is this: Because of Tuđman and HDZ we dont have jobs, we are all in debt, we can barely eat and all people do is worry about some war criminal. People in government are criminals and no one is punishing them. They robbed millions and IF they end up in jail they stay there for 2-3 months. And all because of American, German, France, Spanish etc. so called Croats that flew away when war started and now they think they should have a vote and they are not even paying taxes or spending money in Croatia. Something like General Ante Pavelić that flew away from Croatia to Spain in WW2 and now they call him a hero. Government is OK with that only because this people are their major votes.

by: mario from: USA
May 01, 2011 12:59
Zrinski in 1566 and ICJ (HAGUE) Gen. Gotovina offer striking parallels

Croatian statesmen Petar Zrinsk (1621-1671) and Fran Krsto Frankapan (1643-1671) Petar Zrinsk and Fran Krsto Frankapan both outstanding as statesmen and writers, are among the most beloved figures in the history of Croatia. They had a great successes in liberating the areas occupied by the Turks. However, the Viennese Military council, instead of supporting them to free the rest of the Hungarian and Croatian lands, signed a shameful peace treaty with Turkey, by which the liberated territories had to be handed back to the Turks. The result of the rebellion against Vienna was a cruel public decapitation of Zrinski and Frankapan in Wiener Neustadt near Vienna in 1671. The remains of these two Croatian martyrs were buried in the Cathedral of Zagreb in 1919.


His wife Katarina, also an outstanding poetess, was imprisoned by general Spankau in a monastery in Graz, where she went insane and died in extreme poverty. Even the son of Peter and Katarina - Ivan Antun, the last of the Zrinski's, was imprisoned in Graz, solely because he belonged to this outstanding noble family. He died after 20 years of prison in Schlossberg in Graz out of pneumonia. For more details see [Bartolic].

These six centuries old noble Croatian families died out and their property was robbed. It should be stressed that both Petar Zrinski and Fran Krsto Frankapan went to Vienna voluntarily, where they have been arrested. During the trial they defended themselves claiming that only Croatian Parliament (Hrvatski Sabor) can try them. In their burgs they had a considerable collection of books and works of art, which after confiscation are held in Austria (many of them in Austrian National Library). A period of the influence of the absolutistic Viennese politics had started.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J34rrhKbgys&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60umtyvy8vI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvCAYctKW9k&feature=related

by: Matt from: Kosovo
May 01, 2011 13:11
I think they are innocent. They are prooven "guilty" because the WEST wants to keep Serbia away from Russia. Hopping Serbians will start trusting EU and US.
But this is wrong way, bringing them "closer" to the west. The best way (in my opinion) is to hit/bomb them just like in Libya.

by: Mike P. from: Chicago
May 01, 2011 15:44
This is a well written article. Mr Alic has hit the proverbial nail on the head. Most people in that part of the world are sick of fighting and only wish for a better life for themselves and their children. Both sides in the conflict have blood on their hands. They will never admit this to each other, but amongst themselves it is discussed under their breath. These protests are meant for public consumption. Nothing like a little sabre rattling to help the nationalists blow off a little steam. I commend the author on a well written fair and balanced article.
In Response

by: Ivan from: Sydney
May 02, 2011 03:08
The article is unbalanced, biased and selectively draws from history. It is not noted that the serbs were the original aggressors in the war and that the origins for operation Storm were years of shelling Croatian towns such as Vukovar and Dubrovnik were there were far more civilian deaths. The Hague has dubbed operation storm as illegal, which is akin punishing someone for beating up someone who has broken into your home.
In Response

by: Mike P. from: Chicago
May 02, 2011 09:08
If the Krajina Serbs would have invaded Zagreb then you would be correct, but the truth is that they wanted to unite Serb majority lands with Serbia, and who could blame them? They remember well what Ustasha did to them during WWII and they know that Tudjman had only contempt for them. Please remember that Croatias current boarders were given to them by Tito(a Croat). He also made the Serbs a constituant nation within Croatia. What that means is that Croats had no right to break away from Yugoslavia without the consent of its Serb population. Tudjman simply rewrote the Croatian constitution to make Serbs a minority in the lands that they have lived in for centuries.I find it ironic that Croats ignore this inconveniant little fact.You want Serbians to respect Titos boarders, but you do not want to respect Titos constitution. Talk about "selective and biased"! With that being said, Serbs behaved poorly during the war years as well. I am willing to bet that you would not speak the same of Croats living in Herzegovina who also wanted to break away, and launched a war of their own against Bosnia (an internationaly recognized country with historical boarders much more older and legitimate than Croatias present boarders)Same principle applies, an unhappy minority group wants out of its host nation thus starting a war during which it kills, burns, cleanses "enemies" etc.Let me guess Croats were victims against the "evil" Bosniaks and never so much as hurt a fly! Yeah right! The author of the article Mr.Alic did not take sides or assign blame to any one party. He only wrote of things based in fact and not on emotion or personal feelings. You are so pro-Croat that you are not even willing to accept the fact that Croats did anything wrong as well. Clearly you are the one who is selective and bias.
In Response

by: Slava
May 02, 2011 11:32
In point of fact, armed Croat extremists brutalized Serbs before Dubrovnik was shelled.

Dubrovnik was shelled on account of the action undertakewn by the armed Croat extremists, in conjunction with their presence in that town.
In Response

by: Ivan from: Sydney
May 02, 2011 21:17
Mike P what a load of rubbish, communism fell in the whole of europe and you think that Croatia had no right to break away from Yugoslavia ??? Croatia was internationally recognized on 15 January 1992 by the European Union and subsequently the United Nations. End of story. What you are saying about needing approval of the serb population is rubbish, what you think they were going to hold a referendum while belgrade had its guns pointed towards zagreb, that is really naive thinking??? AFTER THAT THE SERBS HAD NO RIGHT TO INVADE CROATIAN TERRITORY AND THEIR INVASION WAS ILLEGAL.
In Response

by: Ragusian from: Dubrovnik
May 03, 2011 06:55
Regarding Dubrovnik, some war criminals have been convicted for the horrible shelling by the JNA (Mostly Bosnian-Serbs and Montenegrins troops) of innocent civilians in Dubrovnik; General Pavle Strugar was sentenced by the UN war crimes court for the former Yugoslavia for his role in the attacks, others are standing trial and the ex-mayor of Trebinje Bozidar Vucurovic who was arrested by the Serbian border police earlier last month. Many are also forgetting that many ethnic Serbs of Dubrovnik also suffered the bombardments, but not only, as they were too forced/cleans from the town while being called Chetnics even if their family have been a part of the town’s history for many, many generations. Only to be called upon their arrival in Montenegro Ustasa because they’ve fled from Dubrovnik. A few have returned after the war, but some discrimination towards them still exists today by the most brainwashed (aka a large percentage). Ustasa graffiti’s are everywhere and the Orthodox part of the cemetery has been vandalised too (for trying to erase past crimes and/or by pure hate). What a disgrace, not in my name and I don’t choose my friends depending on what religion their ancestors chose a few century back… Sometimes forced… Ringing any bells?
That you want it or not, we are all cousins separated only by bloody religions. I’m one who doesn’t care for such fairy tales, I let all the hatred to the many brainwashed above (both sides) with their posts full of hate, religious dogmas and historic revisionism.
In Response

by: Branko from: Australia
May 03, 2011 04:10
You are right Mike-- Croatia's current borders were drawn up by 'evil' Tito who was a Croat--yes we should scrap those borders-- we would much rather have the Croatian borders the Serb king finally allowed Croatia to have in August of 1939- which means Croatia today would be some 35% larger than it is now.

As for your 'ustashi' comment-- like most Serbs, you hang on to the ustashi -excuse like a drunk that blames his bad childhood for his adult alcoholism. Seems like most Serbs, you have chosen to forget the reality.

The Ustashi were set up in 1929 as a liberation group after your wonderful serb buddies murdered peacenik Croat leader Stjepan Radic in Belgrade Parliament- you know if you chose to rule by the gun, then you must prepare to die by the gun as well--even the most sadistic countries realise this-- except for Serbia of course.

Oh and how does your ustashi excuse fit into the Serb slaughter of 200,000 Albanians during the Second Balkan War of 1913??-- these are British and French figures BTW and it works out that 1 out of every 6 Albanians was killed by Serbs during that conflict?-- that was 28 years before the ustashi took power in HR-- what was your excuse then- boredom?




by: Ivan from: Karanovich
May 01, 2011 15:58
I do not wish to comment on the verdict of the generals as I do not have sufficient information to judge this... and indeed, if war crimes are committed the responsible must pay.

However, I am appalled at the inaccuracies and personally skewed views of that RFERL permits to be published on it's website.

This article starts with the so called facts in 1995. The real facts in that region started in 1990 when Serb terrorists from the Krajina region started blockades of roads (even holding foreign tourists this is public information, check it out), and eventually occupying a large territory of that part of Croatia, aided by Belgrade. Operation storm was indeed a legitimate military operation (endorsed by USA and Nato) to free the territories of a UN internationally recognized Country, which in 1995 Croatia was.

The author of this article obviously has some ulterior motive/agenda and would better serve it by openly writing propaganda pieces for the side he is subliminally promoting here.

by: Peter from: Chicago
May 01, 2011 17:56
Branko, Ivan, matt, and Mario
Thank you for your Nationalist opinions. It's exactly these opinions and inability to recognize the truths being uncovered in the Hague that is the assertion of this article and that is taking Croatia "two steps back" in the views of the western world. That facts are that these two committed crimes against humanity and should be rightly punished for it.
In Response

by: Karlo from: Melbourne
May 02, 2011 00:19
Why are they nationalist opinions Peter? You sound like nothing more than an apologist for Serbian war crimes and Serbia's war of aggression. Not surprising that you are from Chicago
In Response

by: Sasha from: Sydney
May 02, 2011 02:04
Simple but the truth.
In Response

by: Branko from: Australia
May 02, 2011 02:44
Yes Peter, of course as a Serb, you would relish this moral relativism the UN likes to push onto the smaller nations of the world. Also as a Serb, you would no doubt be happy with the ICTY's verdict- one that basically paints victims and perpetrators with the same brush.

Call it nationalism if you like, but I dont remember any Czech or Slovak leaders being jailed for brutalising and expelling 3 million Sudeten Germans from Bohemia in 1945. Or how many Serbs were jailed for the mass murder of Albanians in 1913 and Bosnians in 1914-18? Nor will there ever be any Rumanians prosecuted for the killings and expulsion of some 500,000 Transylvanian Hungarians in 1988-89.

But of course, when it comes to the former SFRJ, the rules of common decency are thrown out the window. Imagine claiming that the Poles and Germans were equally as guilty for WWII?-- after all, didn't Hitler claim that the German minority in Poland was under threat and used this as one of his pretexts for war?- just like Milosevic claiming the Serbs of Croatia were in danger as his excuse?

What would your Amercian buddies say if you claimed they were equally as guilty for 9/11 as those 19 hijackers?-- after all, that is the same moral relativism that the UN is using for the former SFRJ.

All this verdict does is give people like you another excuse to start yet another war in the balkans-- after all, it feeds into your sense of victimhood that fuels your "woe is me" history- a history that repeats itself over and over again, much to the dismay of the rest of the innocent people in the balkans.

I wonder, is there actually a word in Serbian for 'responsibility'?

Nope-- didn't think so.



In Response

by: Sinisa from: Sydney
May 03, 2011 01:31
@Branko, looks like you are very hurt in the fact that your Croatian General was indicted by the ICTY.

History was repeating itself from WW2 where the serbs where brutally exterminated by the Nazi's and the Croatian puppet state with the Ustasha.

the Serbs of Krajina part of Yugoslavia were under threat again from an uprising of Tudjman and his Ustasha puppet regime run by a buch of thugs and criminals and led by Gotovina. may he rot in jail.
In Response

by: Ivan from: Sydney
May 02, 2011 03:14
The atrocities that you refer to are an inevitable part of war. The generals are heroes in Croatia as they averted bigger artocities being committed by the Serb army. This is not backward thinking and the generals are indeed heroes. While I can accept that the Croatian army did commit war crimes I cannot accept that Operation Storm was an illegal operation.
In Response

by: Joe from: Geelong
May 03, 2011 01:33
Ivan - well Operation Storm was led by the US and German military. Croatia is once again a puppet state of modern day nazism (US and Germany).
In Response

by: Ante from: Perth
May 03, 2011 06:25
Ivan, lets just face the truth as a croat that we are not angels ourselves and move on. I have alot of Serbian friends and we are thousands of kilometres away. Every side of the war croats, serbs, bosniaks committed atrocities, but it was the outside influence which triggered this war. PEACE.

by: Anthony from: Melbourne
May 01, 2011 23:30
to you peter the idiot from chicago, have you actually followed these events? do you know what has actually occured in Croatia. Operation storm was a legitimate operation sanctioned by both the U.S and NATO and then when the serbs are unhappy that they for once were the people in the balkans who had lost cried like the whores they are to EU and the Hague and of course they got their way. will then serbians gennerals live a life in luxury in serbia be brough to justice for mass masacres in vukovar? NO THEY WONT because their government wont give them up. its just another case of croatians being screwed over by the serbs and the world just siting back and watching

by: Tomislav from: Sydney
May 02, 2011 01:08
This article is extremely biased and intentionally misses out on lots of key facts.

Rubbish article.
In Response

by: Slava
May 02, 2011 11:35
Not as much rubbish as the biased RFE/RL articles against Serbs and Serbia.

Why hasn't RFE/RL been relatively soft on the nationalist transgressions of the Bosnian Muslims and Albanians?

Soros slanting at play.
In Response

by: Tomislav from: Sydney
May 02, 2011 22:38
Slava

No offence but that’s a different topic, and also your problem.

Serbia is also not 1 to call for Hypocrisy

Serbia claims that Krajina is “Serbia” due to its large Serb population (but ancient Croatian history), and went out of its way to take it, and also did take the area which then lead to Operation Flash. But Serbia also claims that Kosovo is Serbia, due to its ancient Serbian history, even though it has a large Albanian population, very hypocritical.

Majority of Serbs have a extreme diluted way of thinking

Croatia had the right, and was successful at it.
In Response

by: slava
May 03, 2011 12:04
Tomislav, the matters you bring up aren't identical.

For centuries, Serbs were the majority in Krajina. In contrast, Albanians within the last 120 years have replaced Serbs as the majority in Kosovo. The Albanians high birth rate, migration of Albanians from Albania to Kosovo (much of which can be considered illegal) and terrorism against Serbs and other non-Albanians relate to this point.

Historically, Kosovo has more of a linkage to Serbia than Krajina with an independent Croatia.
In Response

by: Tomislav from: Sydney
May 04, 2011 03:14
Slava

Are you kidding me?

Google King Zvonomir.

by: Anonymous
May 02, 2011 03:49
Anes, can you please cite your sources for your statistics. In

I get the feeling that you are citing non-ICTY figures and using the aura of the ICTY judgement to lend them credibility. I saw no figure of 1600 dead nor of 250,000 fleeing attributable to operation Storm. Orie's judgement only attributed tens of thousands of refuges and only a couple hundred dead.

I also find it extraordinary that the complaint of the article is that the Croatian govt is helping with the appeal and that this would affect EU accession.

Legal aid is vital to as a check on the authority of the state, institutions against the individual, or larger states against smaller ones. A state, in the absence of amicus curae status, has no way of defending or appealing a judgement whre they are not a party but have effectively been convicted or potentially face civil liability in another court.

This is the fundamental flaw of the ICTY, and something Victor Peskin noted in his study of the ICTY and ICTR. Nuremburg moved away from collective guilt and sort to individualise war crimes. That's what the ICTY's brief was supposed to be, however it has failed in that brief.

At the heart of the dispute is what is an acceptable level of casualties and displacement for a military operation. By international standards, this military operation was one of the cleanest. However there is lawfare going on in ICTY between activists that wish to set a higher standard that effectively outlaws almost any military operation. The Croatian Generals are pawns in this legal battle.
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