Saturday, May 26, 2012


Russia

Literature And Empire: Scholar Susan Layton Discusses Russia's 'Literary Caucasus'

A historical photograph by Sergei Mikhailovich Prokudin-Gorsky of 19th-century Russian settlers
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Where did Russia's stereotypes of the Caucasus come from?

Susan Layton's book "Russian Literature and Empire: Conquest of the Caucasus from Pushkin to Tolstoy" provides part of the answer. The book has been described by critics as the first text "to provide a synthesizing study of Russian writing about the Caucasus during the 19th-century age of empire-building." The book explores Russia's long and complicated literary and political engagement with the Caucasus. How did Russian writers imagine and portray the Caucasus? To what extent did literature underwrite empire-building? How was Russia's own identity formed vis-à-vis its imperial expansion?

These are just some of the issues that Layton discussed in an extensive conversation with Salome Asatiani of RFE/RL's Georgian Service.

RFE/RL: What role did the conquest of the Caucasus -- and its subsequent representation as Russia's own "Orient" or "Literary Caucasus," as you call it in your book -- play in Russia's own identity formation?

Author Susan Layton
​​Susan Layton: Russian national consciousness began developing in the 18th century, on contact with foreign non-national entities. From the time of Peter the Great, Western Europe played the central role as a clarifier of "Russian-ness." But the Asian borderlands of the Russian Empire also contributed to this formation of Russian national, as well as imperial consciousness. As of the 18th century, ethnographic expeditions to the Caucasus, Crimea, Siberia, and so on produced huge compilations of data that had limited readerships but all the same exemplified a growing imperial consciousness. The Russian elite was beginning to form a mental map of the multinational empire, as this vast and colorful conglomerate of many peoples, cultures, types of terrain. And on this Russian mental map the Caucasus came to assume a special prominence as a version of "the Orient."

Susan Layton’s book "Russian Literature and Empire: Conquest of the Caucasus from Pushkin to Tolstoy"
​​How did this happen? I think the answer lies essentially in the fact that the military conquest of the Caucasus -- which began in earnest around 1818, under General [Aleksey] Yermolov -- coincided with the rise of Russian Romanticism, a cultural phenomenon that imitated West European fascination with the Islamic East. One may mention such influential classics as [Wolfgang Amadeus] Mozart's "Abduction from the Sergalio," the so-called Oriental Tales of [Lord George Gordon] Byron. Furthermore, in addition to this historical coincidence between the military conquest and the rise of Romanticism, as of the early 19th century the processes of empire-building brought more Russians into the Caucasus than ever before. They came as civil servants, travelers, exiles, soldiers. So given these new contacts, the Russians -- aware of the Western Orientalism and the European Imperial manner in Asia -- readily perceived the Caucasus as their own Orient, so to speak. And they made it a major point of reference against which to clarify their own national identity.

RFE/RL: In order to illuminate parallels between the Russian and the European experiences of empire-building, you draw on Edward Said's path-breaking, yet contested book, "Orientalism." Said writes of a system of representation, created by Western novelists, poets, travelers, and academics, which depicted images and stereotypes of the "Orient." Said writes that "the oriental is irrational, depraved [fallen], childlike, 'different'; thus the European is rational, virtuous, mature, 'normal.'" According to Said, this manner of representation was used to justify colonization even before it actually took place. Was the Russian Orientalism toward the Caucasus different from the Western one? If so, in what ways?

Layton: We can find similarities, certainly. But, in my view, the Russian Orientalism did differ greatly from the model Said proposed. By imagining the Caucasus as an "Orient," Russians, no doubt, were bolstering their claim to be European. But, at the same time, Russia could not isolate the Orient as its "other" as easily as the Western Europeans could do. Because Asia, after all, comprised an organic part of Russian space and history. Asia was both "self" and "other" for Russia.

RFE/RL: As one historian wrote, "Britain had an empire, but Russia was an empire." Is there a difference in the way the empires themselves were organized?

Layton: Indeed. It's Russian status as this multinational, continental Empire that makes a huge difference. Russia has this hybrid, semi-Asian identity. And this found expression in the romanticizing of the North Caucasus peoples, on the part of [Aleksandr] Pushkin, [Aleksandr] Bestuzhev-Marlinsky, [Mikhail] Lermontov. Russia's cultural heterogeneity predisposed romantics to enhancing Asia some way or another, instead of identifying exclusively and consistently with the Western civilization -- to which, they knew, their country did not wholly belong. So it's a much more complicated and ambivalent enterprise. I would just add that this whole problem of comparing Russian Orientalism to Said's paradigm has been receiving increasing scholarly attention. A very recent major contribution is a book called "Russian Orientalism: Asia in the Russian Mind from Peter the Great to the Emigration" by historian David Schimmelpenninck van der Oye. It is a lovely book.

RFE/RL: As you noted, the concept of Europe has played a very important role in the formation of Russia's identity. Some thinkers state that "Europe" is the main "other" in relation to which the idea of Russia was defined -- when Russians spoke of Europe, they also spoke of themselves. This was particularly pertinent with regard to the tensions between the Slavophiles -- the romantic nationalists who opposed the European way of development -- and the Europe-oriented liberal perspectives. These tensions crystallized in the late 1840s and, to a degree, continue to this day. This "othering," however, was a two-way street; Eastern Europe -- and Russia with it -- was consistently Orientalized by Western thinkers of the late 18th century. Or semi-Orientalized, as historian Larry Wolff famously called it in his influential book, "Inventing Eastern Europe: The Map of Civilization on the Mind of the Enlightenment." In his words, this was simultaneously "Europe but not Europe," a location that was to mediate between Europe and the Orient. So, then, to what extent did this troubled relationship with the concept of Europe figure in the Russian texts about the conquered Caucasus?

Layton: I think it is absolutely central. And you are certainly right to bring up Wolff, as the main clarifier of this whole issue. This tradition of Orientalizing Russia does indeed resonate in the Russian construction of the Caucasus. The real heart of the matter was captured in a famous statement that [Fyodor] Dostoyevsky made at the very end of his life, apropos the conquest of Central Asia. He said: "In Europe we were hangers-on and slaves, but in Asia we shall be the masters. In Europe we were Tatars, but in Asia we too are Europeans. Our civilizing mission in Asia will bribe our spirit and drive us thither." In other words, to build an Empire in Asia was a European sort of project that shored up Russians' self-perceptions as "Europeans." This is a dynamic that confirms to what historians Peter Holquist and Alexander Martin have called the "dialectics of empire" -- the interpenetration between the way Russians treated and imagined the "East" and their problematic relationship with the "West." It is absolutely central.
Dostoyevsky said at the very end of his life, apropos the conquest of Central Asia, that: 'In Europe we were hangers-on and slaves, but in Asia we shall be the masters.'

RFE/RL: In your book, you take four primary authors who produced the "literary Caucasus." The trajectory starts from Aleksandr Pushkin's poem "The Prisoner of the Caucasus" in 1822 and ends with Lev Tolstoy's "Hadji Murat," written between 1896 and 1904 and first published in Russia in 1912, heavily censored. In between these two, there were Aleksandr Bestuzhev-Marlinsky and Mikhail Lermontov in the 1830s and 1940s. Which of these authors, would you say, were instrumental in rationalizing and/or justifying the Russian imperial rule? And which were most critical of it?

Layton: I think the question is very hard to answer, maybe impossible. Because context changes the way authors are read. All three of the great romantics are highly ambivalent. You can find, on the one hand, a valorization of North Caucasian man as a fighter for freedom, incarnation of martial virtues -- all kinds of things that the Russians like to associate with themselves. In addition, you find hints -- especially in Lermontov -- of the ferocity, bestiality of the conquest. In Lermontov's poem "Ismail Bay" the Russian army is referred to "hishni zver," a predatory animal. The Russians are shown destroying a village, murdering babies and so on.

So you can find -- and, I think, especially in Lermontov -- a great duality of treatment and of the war, and you can extract various kinds of scenarios and values. For example, in the 1990s, when unrest in the Caucasus was developing, Chechens tore down a statue of Lermontov in Grozny, focusing on an image in one of his poems, which is that of a "zloy Chechen" -- this wicked Chechen lurking around the bank. So in this context -- the post-Soviet context -- Lermontov was seized upon as a very imperialist writer. And yet that is quite a distorted reading.

I would argue, as a matter of fact, that out of the three great romantics, Lermontov was the one who cast the most doubt on the moral legitimacy of the military conquest. Of course, Tolstoy's "Hadji Murat" alone plainly denounced the Caucasian war as a genocidal aggression. But, in my view, motives of Romantic literature -- including the Russian soldiers as murderers of babies -- were vital antecedents for the antiimperialist position that Tolstoy articulated in old age.

RFE/RL: Religious differences play a very potent role in the Orientalist discourse. Islam, in particular -- due to its historical perception as a threat to Western Europe -- was turned "into the very epitome of an outsider against which the whole of European civilization from the Middle Ages on was founded," to quote Said once again. In the Russian context, how did the Orientalization of the Caucasus develop in relation to its escalating war against the Muslims of the Caucasus? What was the dominant mode of representing Muslims and the Islamic cultures of the North Caucasus?

Layton: That is a very interesting question. There was an intriguing divergence between the ways Russians imagined peoples of the North Caucasus and Georgians. The dominant romantic Russian image of the North Caucasus mountaineer was a "noble Savage" type. Incorporating martial virtues -- bravery, love of freedom, characteristics that Russians tended to attribute to their own national manly profiles.

RFE/RL: Parallels of this "noble Savage," of course, can be found in the Western literature, primarily with Byron.

Layton: Absolutely. And associated with mountaineers. The way Byron treats Albania in "Childe Harold's Pilgrimage" is very much to the point indeed. But as initially modeled in Pushkin's "Kavkazski Plennik," the mountaineers, or "gortsy," were not strongly marked as a Muslim people. References to Islam are, in fact, very marginal. What dominates instead is an Alpine ambiance. There is this little Circassian village, nestled amidst these splendid mountains. And such images soon -- in the 1820s -- prompted Russians to perceive the Caucasian mountains as their own Alps -- the "Kavkazskie Alpi." In addition, Pushkin's poem features the Circassian "narod" -- people -- returning to their village in the evening after working in their fields all day. This is a marginal but significant detail, I think, that suggests that these people have a kind of agricultural base, they are not just bandits. And especially to this use of the word "narod" -- this image gives Pushkin's Circassians a certain resemblance to peasants.
"The Caucasus has fallen at the foot of the Russian throne," wrote a Russian journalist in 1823. The war seemed to be over. When, in fact, it was merely a lull.

In this connection, it is also important to remember that when Pushkin wrote "Kavkazskii Plennik," he shared a pervasive Russian belief that General Yermolov had already succeeded in subjugating the North Caucasus. "The Caucasus has fallen at the foot of the Russian throne" -- wrote a Russian journalist in 1823. The war seemed to be over. When, in fact, it was merely a lull. The jihad against the Russians erupted -- in Chechnya, in Daghestan -- in the late 1820s, under the leadership of the first Caucasian imam, Ghazi Muhhamad. And this resistance movement would continue, as you know, to the reign of Imam Shamil, who surrendered to Russia only in 1859. Now, in the context of the jihad -- and the escalation of Russian military assault -- we find a proliferation of literary images of the "gortsi" as ferocious, bestial Muslims. The Islamic element becomes pronounced. And, similarly, the landscape, too, was Orientalized to a certain extent in writing of the 1830s. The mountains, for example, became "Aulous mountains" instead of "the Alps."

These processes of Orientalization -- much in the mould that Said talks about -- occurred mainly in works of writers now long forgotten. Authors that my book calls "little orientalizers." It is true, that many references to Islamic culture, the North Caucasus and Azerbaijan appear in writings of Bestuzhev-Marlinsky, Lermontov and the soldier-poet Aleksandr Polezhaev. However, their stories are more complicated and ambivalent than those works produced by the obscure writers, the ephemeral, little orientalizers. And the big complicating factor is that Bestuzhev-Marlinsky, Lermontov, Polezhaev represent the wars as morally disturbing, even sickening enterprise. And this is a theme that I think resonates in late 19th-century Russian perceptions of the Caucasian conquest as a harmful, useless escapade of ambitious generals.

RFE/RL: Now if I could ask you specifically about Georgia. I think you arrive at fascinating findings in your book. You describe this very peculiar mode of representation, quite different from how the Northern Caucasus was being depicted in the texts. Most importantly, you claim that Georgia was consistently Orientalized and its European traits were systematically overlooked. Could you tell us a bit more about this? And also, if you could specify, to what extent did the Russian writers misrepresent Georgia? At that time, the influence of Turkish and Persian cultures was very big. In a way, Georgia was an easy "target" to be Orientalized -- many historians are still convinced that it was Russia who played a key role in Georgia's Europeanization. So, then, just how European was Georgia at the time of the Russian imperial expansion? How much did the Russian authors have to gloss over?

Layton: Yes. The comparison is indeed striking. As you put it in your question, Georgia was in a sense an easy target to Orientalize, because of the ways of influence from Persia and Turkey. They left a considerable impact. But the big point, I think, is that Russians engaged in selective perception of Georgia's history and culture. They glossed over the ancient Christian foundations and very, very notably emasculated Georgia. All in a manner that legitimized Russian takeover of the country.

The Oriental attributes that entered into the fashioning of the North Caucasian peoples clustered around armed resistance to the empire -- resistance on the part of these very formidable warriors. On the other hand, Russians represented Georgia as this lush, sensual, indolent Orient, frequently symbolized as a woman -- a woman who yearns for union with Russia. And then, to complete the imperialist myth, Georgian men were stereotyped as lazy, impotent, timid, often drunkards, rushed and hot-tempered, but always ineffectual.

RFE/RL: As epitomized in the famous phrase by Lermontov, about the "timid Georgians" who fled the battlefield, for example?

Layton: Yes, exactly. One of his relatives at the time, by the way, said -- Lermontov was in the army, he knows Georgians were not timid, why did he write that? But it is all a part of a myth.

RFE/RL: So what happened? Why do we have these virile figures in the North Caucasus -- Ammalat Bek, Hadji-Murat, Shamil himself -- and no strong male protagonist in the texts about Georgia?

Layton: Well, it is a question that may be impossible to answer. The wonderful historian Mark Raeff once told me that the best history is produced when you explore the question of "how," not "why." [To ask] "why" can often just lead to a lot of speculation. What we can do for sure is just observe how something happens and then maybe make some guesses about what may have been behind it. In the case of Russia, the Russian myths about Georgia are clearly out to legitimize an imperial conquest. And I think there is something about the very smallness of the country, compared to the vast size of the Russian Empire, that appealed to a sort of machismo.

What remains so intriguing -- one would like to know why, have an explanation for – is this junction between the dominant themes of Russian representation and the complex realities of Georgian culture and Georgian interaction with Russians. It is not merely that Georgia adopted Christianity six centuries before Russia did. There is also the fact that after the Russian annexation of Georgia -- which begins in 1801 -- many Georgians served as officers in the Tsarist army, they fought in the Napoleonic wars, in campaigns against Chechens and so forth. In addition, there was this network of professional and personal relations between Russians and Georgians. [Aleksandr] Griboyedov's father-in-law, Prince Aleksandr Chavchavadze, for example, became famous for his hospitality and [the] gathering of cultivated literary men from Russia and Georgia to share their interests. And of course, literary, cultural contacts between Russians and Georgians continued to flourish into the Soviet period. And yet the positive features of Christian manhood, manifestations of affinity between Russian and Georgian men tended to be repressed in Russian writing, in favor of this cultural mythology that underwrote imperial Russian domination of Georgia.

RFE/RE: Which texts in particular are you referring to here?
The writings of Russians not only repressed Christianity, but they also repressed the brutality of Russian subjugation of Georgia and Georgian resistance to Russian rule.

Layton: "The Demon" of Lermontov is a good example, where we have this image of the timid Georgian men. Another part of this process that, I think, maybe is even more vivid is that the writings of Russians not only repressed Christianity, but they also repressed the brutality of Russian subjugation of Georgia and Georgian resistance to Russian rule. Most notoriously, in 1803 the deposed Georgian queen, Mariam, stabbed to death the tsarist general, who had come to her quarters with orders to deport her. This is a spectacular act that Russian documents of the time describe as bestial, unbelievably ferocious for a woman to have committed. And this murder, I believe, leaves its traces in Russian literature's figures of dangerous Georgian women. Lermontov in his poem has the image of the depraved Queen Tamara; Pushkin's Zarema, in the "Fountain of Bakhchisaray" is a murderer; there is a Medea-like figure in a fragment by Griboedov, called "Georgian Night." In short, these violent women also help underwrite empire-building by suggesting that strong men are needed to keep them under control. And Georgian men, we remember, are weaklings.

RFE/RL: There is a seeming contradiction here -- in political terms, Georgia's annexation by Russia was largely justified as a defense of Christianity and European cultural values against Islam. And still, Georgia's Christian heritage is ignored in the Russian literary texts.

Layton: Yes, I think it is a very good point. But mythmaking tends to be good at resolving contradictions that seem to be irresolvable. I think the symbolism of femininity probably goes a long way to explaining this. On the one hand, you have the idea of Russia as protector, and the emphasis on being co-religionist. But there is also at least subliminal Russian awareness that, even though you have the bond of Christianity, every class or society in Georgia, at one time or another, revolted against Russian rule. So the conquer is really not wanted. And this gets incarnated in these violent women. So you have a sense that there is both the need for protection, but also danger -- at bottom, a woman who can turn into sort of a hellhound. Both sides of the issue get resolved in the figure of the dominant Russian -- the Russian bridegroom, and so on.
This forum has been closed.
Comment Sorting
Comments
     
by: Jack from: US
November 13, 2011 20:32
I would say rather desperate piece of cheap anti-russian propaganda by RFERL. Apparently the creative ideas on the part of RFERL contributors are in so short supply, almost anything goes..
In Response

by: Ivan the terrible from: the Red house
November 14, 2011 12:29
Dorogoi Jackie boy yer name should be spelled with -er - instead of the -ac- in Jack.Shame you forgot to take yer pills again.Похмелин даэш???
In Response

by: Joe
November 14, 2011 12:33
Way too simpistic an article.

In comparison, note that RFE/RL doesn't emphasize the faulty nationalist leaning suggestions made by some Albanians, Bosnian Muslims, Georgians, Croats, Poles and Ukrainians.
In Response

by: Wanchi from: Aslana
November 18, 2011 11:55
Hi Joe, i guess you have no problem with Serbian nationalism?
In Response

by: Joe
November 22, 2011 13:26
Poor question on your part Wanci - as it doesn't adress the hypocritically flawed bias evident at RFE/RL.

In Response

by: Konstantin from: Los Angeles
November 14, 2011 14:50
Article is simplistic and weak, but just to opposite, Jack of lying Russia,
it tries to lacker and narrow to opposits - bestial, treasonous Russia and its
benevolant creator, Ibero-Caucasian race, represented by Georgia.
Peter's Russia was created by proposition of Georgian King to Mihail Romanov and later the son of Vahtang Bagrationi, Peter the First.
How dare, Jack of lying Russia, even mention in derigatory contest the
victims of Russia, Poles and Ukrainians?

by: Erin Bouma from: Moscow, Russia
November 14, 2011 09:12
I found this a very fascinating exploration of the topic of mythology and identity as shaped by literature and history. Many important insights and attitudes are discussed.
Especially interesting to me is how Russia sought to define itself- both in relationship to Europe and other imperialistic powers, and in relationship to Asia and oriental culture. The resulting complexity is often ascribed to the "mystic Russian soul" but really has a rational, historical basis.
The on-going struggle between Russia and Georgia also has historical-mythological dimensions.
In Response

by: Ivan the terrible from: Stepmother Russia
November 14, 2011 12:39
Indeed,mr. Bouma,the mystic russian `soul` has a rational,historic basis-the americans call it moonshine and the russians-samogon.Coupled with selyodka and cabbage dressing it gives you the essence of true orthodox kgb-fsb christianity.Seems I`ll have to send my oprichniki again to put things right in Mother Russia.
In Response

by: Konstantin from: Los Angeles
November 14, 2011 15:20
Just now my comment was destroyed by your server.
later...
In Response

by: Ivan the terrible from: Mother Russia
November 15, 2011 11:46
Dorogoi Konstantinople,please dont answer,I know what youre going to write...please take yer pills regularly...see ya on the dark side of the moon!!!
In Response

by: Konstantin from: Los Angeles
November 15, 2011 19:55
Unlike you, Ivan, not as terrible as missguiding,
I need only pills for health problems inflicted by mean
Russians, inlisted in CIA and "Bechtele" to lie about me
and to use on me "Non Lethal Weapons" and "Lemurs", for
American money - a Kadochnikov's replay of Russian Empire,
to kill as "Nationalists" victims of Russia and to silence them.

Still, pills will not help you, Van'ka - your madness sprinkling
out of you - "Kostantinople", as you call it, has nothing to do
with Konstantin, whose mother and wife were from South-
West old Georgian Kingdoms - Constantinopol in mind
of Russian Chauvinists is one more Capital of Empire
to be - expand bestial madness of Varanga-Prashka.

The "drunk misterious soul" is a common plossible
Deny-ability for Russia, romantisized by the Empire,
In reality it is to excuse crimes - godless athrocities
Against Humanity by Varanga-Prashka, repeatedly,
As Western Powers were bribed by Russian Zars.

by: William from: Ellensburg, WA
November 14, 2011 22:50
Great interview with deep and extremely interesting analysis that helps you find answers to many important questions regarding the current political issues.
Bravo both to the interviewee and the interviewer!
And certainly to RFE/RL!
In Response

by: Joe
November 15, 2011 09:29
A superfical overview on your part.
In Response

by: William from: Ellensburg, WA
November 15, 2011 18:41
Hi Joe,
My intention was not to review the piece. I just expressed my opinion. You are entitled to have your own.
In Response

by: Joe
November 16, 2011 14:09
Hi back William,

Like the featured piece in question, your opinion isn't giving a complete picture.

As referenced earlier by RFE/RL, a poll taken after the 2008 war in the Caucasus shows that most Georgians prefer Russians over any other ethnic group. During the Russian Empire and Soviet periods, Russo-Georgian ties were pretty good.

There's also the matter of what motivated Georgia to become part of the Russian Empire - a fear of Turkey and common Orthodox-Christian heritage with Russia. One can find a good number of people with a Georgian background in the Russian Orthodox Church. The Russian and Georgian monarchies became close to each other, inclusive of intermarriage.
In Response

by: Konstantin from: Los Angeles
November 18, 2011 08:11
Georgia was never part of Russian Empire.
Russia betrayed Georgia and whole Eastern Europe and
revival of old Ibero-Caucasian CIS, like Media or Lidia.

As for Ortodox nations, even Serbians, stanch pro-Russians, they
betrayed by Russia again - devision of Serbia and Ugoslavia between Germans and Russians - instead of UN condomnation of "Mashtrih" for transforming it into Ugoslavian CIS.

Varaga-Prashka killed or vanished most of members of Georgian
and Caucasian Dynasties and noble houses in whole Caucasus
and invaded Georgia that at the time liberated old Georgian
provinces in Northern Turkey, Turkish Armenia and Iranian Azerbaijan,
based on aggreements with Peter the First, which Russia betrayed,
and betrayed once again - by turning short liberation oif North Caucasus
from pillaging neighbours by Muslim foreign bases - into 50 years Caucasian war - repopulate their land and property by Rashka-Prashka.

Sure, it was also a positive factor of crteating civilizations by pre-Georgia
and Georgia through history, including creating Russia - however,
Russia periodicly betraying their creators for a breeding frensy
of barbarians and depriving its neighbours from freedom, dignity
and life itself...
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
November 18, 2011 10:46
No Joe,

The Georgians repeatedly rebelled against Russian RULE in the 19th century, and many Georgians publicly stated that Russian rule was worse than any other.

However, unlike Russians who have a tendency towards extreme racism, Georgians can differentiate between Russians and their government.

It is interesting to note that although Georgians do like Russians as individuals, they prefer the US to all other nations for political relations.
In Response

by: Wanchi from: Aslana
November 18, 2011 11:53
I can't wait to read a book. An excellent insight into literature, sociology and history.
In Response

by: Joe
November 18, 2011 13:43
Andrew is wrong again.

If Russians are so "racist" (sic), why is it that the Ossetians and Abkhaz prefer Russia over Georgia, in addition to most Georgians preferring Russians over other non-Georgians?

Once again, Georgia sought to become part of Russia in the 19th century for reasons previously described in this thread.
In Response

by: Rasto from: London
November 19, 2011 05:51
Ossetians and to some extent Abchazians were always treated by Russians differently than Georgians since th ebeginning of the occupation. Ossteians (including these living in northern part of Caucassus) were always seeking strong protector against Muslim neighbourghs. After first world war in first Georgian democtratic poll in whole Georgia won mid to mid right parties while in Samachablo (SO) with strong Ossetian minority won Communists. South Ossetia was used as a one launch pad to later invasion of Soviet Communists to Georgia. It is also quoted that it were Ossetians who have helped Russians to firmly establish their army in Northern Caucassus in the 19th Century
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
November 19, 2011 06:40
Joe, I know you are a little retarded, but still, once again.

1. Russians are very racist, note the fact that Russia has more neo-nazis than the rest of the world combined.

2. Most of the Russian takeover of Georgia was done at gunpoint. The Georgians had wanted an alliance with Russia, not annexation. The Russians signed a treaty with the east Georgians guaranteeing them protection of their religion, laws, customs, and language, which was immediately broken with the Georgian Church being abolished, Russification etc etc etc.

3. This caused numerous revolts including those in Imereti, Guria, Racha, Kakheti, and even in Tbilisi, and the Georgians were so disgusted by Russian rule after 10 years they went to the Ottomans and the French (Napoleon) for assistance.

4. Georgians like Russians as individuals, but they do not like the Russian state. Unlike you they are not racist supporters of ethnic cleansing. They also like Ukrainians, Americans, Germans, Ossetians (highest rate of intermarriage in the Russian empire was between Georgians and Ossetians) and as for Ossetians preferring Russians, maybe in north Ossetia, but there are more Ossetians in Tbilisi than in South Ossetia, and Ossetians send their kids to Tbilisi to study in Ossetian language schools, something they can't do in Tskhinvali
In Response

by: Joe
November 21, 2011 08:10
Actually Andrew, you're the one exhibting more of a retarded manner.

Tensions between Armenians and Georgians in Abkhazia have been reported.

Ossetians include those in South and North Ossetia as well as elsewhere. Overall, they seem to prefer Russia over Georgia.

For whatever reason, RFE/RL didn't post my submitted comment that included a link of a news report concerning the recent high level visit to Russia by the head of the Georgian Orthodox Church, who met his Russian counterpart.

by: lz from: zl
November 27, 2011 01:45
for your information....Abkhazians and Ossets don't PREFER Russia, they... as well as Circassians and Chechens and Daghestanis are USING Russia to get to their ultimate goal to gain independence from Russia...
In Response

by: Joe
November 30, 2011 01:15
They prefer Russia over Georgia.

Moreover, Russia is the only nation recognizing Abkhaz and South Ossetian independence.

When faced with reality, anti-Russian propaganda can only distort things so far.
In Response

by: lz from: zl
December 07, 2011 01:08
and Georgia is the only country that recognized Circassian genocide....Joe, don't you think that Caucasians have more in common with each other and used to live there and together centuries before Russia even appeared on the map....the myths and stereotypes that Russia developed about the Caucasus and still uses them up to this day are outrageous and frankly annoying...
In Response

by: Joe
December 07, 2011 14:26
The "myths and sterotypes" pertain to what Saakashvili and his supporters spout.

As has been reported, his peddled genocide recognition is half-assed in the way it doesn't acknowledge Georgian culpability.

In point of fact, many Cherkess (Circassians) were loyal to Imperial Russia, with a good number of them fighting on the White side during the Russian Civil War. In exile, it wasn't uncommon to see White Russians and Cherkess fraternzing among themselves.

On another point you raise on regional solidarity, everyone from the same region don't always get along.
In Response

by: Joe
December 08, 2011 09:42
The Georgian nationalist government of Saakakhsvili distorts the stated genocide by deemphasizing the Georgian angle to that occurrence.

Inaccurately blaming Russia is a diversionary tactic for some.

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