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The Power Vertical

Podcast -- Spy Vs. Spy: Russia's Espionage Games

This Soviet-era poster warns citizens to "beware of spies."
This Soviet-era poster warns citizens to "beware of spies."
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An indictment in the United States this week of 11 alleged Russian agents on charges of illegally exporting sensitive microelectronics through a Texas-based company has refocused attention on the Kremlin's espionage activities, which some analysts say have risen to Cold War levels.
 
But this isn't your father's looking-glass war. In the age of the Internet and social media, international espionage has entered a whole new dimension.
 
In the latest edition of "The Power Vertical Podcast," I discuss the new spy games with my regular co-host, Kirill Kobrin, and special guest Mark Galeotti, a professor at New York University who is an expert on Russia's security services and author of the blog "In Moscow's Shadows."
 
Also on the podcast, Kirill, Mark, and I talk about Russian President Vladimir Putin's upcoming birthday celebrations.

The Power Vertical -- Spy Vs. Spy: Russia's Espionage Games
The Power Vertical -- Spy Vs. Spy: Russia's Espionage Gamesi
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Listen to or download the podcast above, or subscribe to The Power Vertical Podcast on iTunes.
 
Enjoy...

Tags: espionage, Vladimir Putin, Power Vertical podcast, Russian intelligence services

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by: La Russophobe from: USA
October 06, 2012 17:54
When was the last time a big ring of American spies was apprehended in Russia? Is the explanation that Americans are that much better at spying than Russia? Or is it that Americans are simply friendlier? Or do they consider Russia so pathetic it's not worth spying on? Any way you look at it, it's pretty humiliating for Russia. But not quite as humiliating as being caught stealing such pedestrian computer materials, and being exposed as being so unable to make them yourself. Putin's Russia is as backwards and pathetic as it has always been, stealing instead of inventing. That is the price of totalitarian society, and highlights the fact that Russia does not have one college in the world's top 200.
In Response

by: Mark from: Victoria
October 06, 2012 22:23
Meanwhile, the USA has three colleges just in the top five alone. And still, one-fifth of Americans surveyed believes the sun revolves around the earth, and Gallup gives Americans high marks for general knowledge because most know the event celebrated on the nation's most popular holiday, the 4th of July.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/3742/new-poll-gauges-americans-general-knowledge-levels.aspx

Surprisingly, 62.9 % of Republicans still believe Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction when the USA invaded in 2003, and 55.6% of Republicans have always believed President Obama was born in a country other than the United States.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~benv/files/poll%20responses%20by%20party%20ID.pdf

How many Americans got their smarts from top colleges, and how many got them from talk radio anchored by blinding ignorance? You tell me.
In Response

by: Anonymous
October 07, 2012 16:04
Mark, who rates the colleges? The West, the East or … Russia?
In Response

by: William from: Aragon
October 07, 2012 22:31
Thanks Mark - let those facts speak for themselves. Not to mention that Russia is now the only world power with a space "shuttle" capability, and has the fastest military jet-fighter in the world. "...it's not worth spying on", eh?
In Response

by: Mark from: Victoria
October 08, 2012 04:37
The ratings list I used came from a multinational organization called QS. The Director is a Brit from Nottingham, but the others are from all over. QS is headquartered in London. Although the group reports they speak an impressive cross-section of languages among them, we have no way of knowing how well they speak them and you have to go down as far as #18 on the list before you hit a college in which you could expect the main language spoken to be other than English.

http://www.iu.qs.com/about/meet-the-team/

Categories used to compile the score that decides where you rate on the list are Academic Reputation, Employer Reputation, Faculty-Student Ratio, International Faculty, International Students and Citations per Faculty.

One that's missing, and one in which Russia might do quite a bit better than many, would be "percentage of the total population which has a shot at a college education".

According to Wikipedia, over 50% of Americans claim to have had "some college", but it's difficult to say what good it did them because the percentage that obtained at least an Associate's Degree is less than 40%. That's still pretty good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States#General_attainment_of_degrees.2Fdiplomas

Over half of Russian adults, however, have completed university education, which is considerably higher than the USA and twice as high as the OECD average.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Russia#cite_note-unesco-15
In Response

by: Anonymous
October 08, 2012 22:00
"Not to mention that Russia is now the only world power with a space "shuttle" capability, and has the fastest military jet-fighter in the world. "...it's not worth spying on", eh? "

Testify, William! If you check out the link below on the Shkval torpedo, there is some delicious irony for you near the bottom; in 2000, an American "businessman" named Edmond Pope was arrested by the FSB for stealing state secrets - specifically, information on the Shkval torpedo - and consigned to the slammer for 20 years. He was pardoned later that same year by that soulless black hole of merciless evil, Vladimir Putin, on humanitarian grounds because he had been diagnosed with bone cancer.

Although he was posing as a businessman, Pope was a former Navy Captain who spent most of his U.S. Navy career in intelligence, and was the head of a private security firm. Some might not call him a spy, but those people would have sand in their ears. But wait, that's not the delicious part!

The original unguided straight-running Shkval was introduced in 1977. More than 20 years later, the United States government apparently thought it was still a secret worth stealing.
In Response

by: General Patton from: from grave
October 07, 2012 16:25
LaRuss this is my first and last warning. Russians hate Americans, and Americans are friendly to Russia. You will be sold for nothing when the time is right. Americans help Russia all their free time against Muslims countries occupied by Russia. They are so nice to Russia they even helped Russia to assassinate pro-independence Chechen president Dzhokhar Dudaev, they put Chechen/North Caucasus pro-independence movement into the terrorist list, and offered millions of dollars for their leaders' heads. Even before that they provided Studebaker lorries for Russians to commit genocide against Muslim North Caucasians via the land lease in 1944.
I call Russia and USA: Twix the sweet couple.
Oh! Wait! Take my words back, in 1993 the head of the Chechen intelligence Khozh-Akhmed Noukhaev said that Russia is the center of the world government. I guess the USA is her working bee.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/target-patton-robert-wilcox/1105516155
In Response

by: Johnathan from: California
October 17, 2012 00:58
You people are idiots for comparing Russia and USA. These two superpowers has great people and you should show some respect for the people that work hard and try to do their best for a better world.

by: Konstantine from: Los Angeles
October 08, 2012 00:26
Thought it is a classic case of classic "movie" war,
Where legitimate secrets of some countries stolen,
It is a drop in a backet of barbarian Empires hore -
To plot torture, plagiarize, dissposses and kill all
That is not Cousins Emperors and their luers.

WW1 was not for national interests of nations,
But to murder at least 40 millions of the hated
By the Cousins scared by "Host of Revolution"
Innocent by standards men, as the moderated
Spy agencies and nations, conspire plagiarize.

It could be, wile sucking of me blood of Jesus,
The danceling on "Bundershaft" CIA and KGB
Relaxed a bit, and as a gift to Putin, the hoses
Of Russian sucking sent a gift as spying bees.
The gift before that was murder of my mother.

by: Ray F. from: Lawrence, KS
October 08, 2012 01:07
Nice report and have to agree 100% on the folly and waste of most espionage work. The Russians aren’t alone in creating elaborate surveillance bureaucracies whose main function is to protect their turf and salaries (all under the guise of ‘protecting national security’). The Department of Homeland Security is a gross example of this government-sponsored scrutiny. From my pedestrian background in intelligence work, I would wager that 90% of all valuable information can be derived from open sources or merely making a couple of phone calls. The Russians suffer more from this mania, as many don’t appear to believe that access to open information helps to strengthen all fibers of society, and not just those wearing trench-coats and sunglasses.
In Response

by: Mark from: Victoria
October 08, 2012 17:34
Well said, Ray, not to mention accurate. Astonishing things that would have made intelligence professionals drool as little as 20 years ago are now available in open source if you are patient and know how to search. The trick now is to sort the believable from the hedged or deliberately fabricated in open-source data, and that can often be achieved by comparing claimed performance figures with known capabilities, to use one example. However, there is the occasional breakthrough when a certain medium has hit a design wall and cannot be made to go further, or faster or smaller or whatever.

An example is the Shkval torpedo. When torpedo design had evolved about as far as was possible and improvements had become mainly those of incremental efficiency, it was Russian designers who thought of a torpedo driving through air rather than through water, and routed the exhaust so the Shkval drove through a continuous column of its own bubbles. This resulted in a torpedo of fearsome speeds, although it is a straight-runner and not guided. But you don't have an awful lot of time to get out of the way. All open-source information. This source

https://www.militaryperiscope.com/mdb-smpl/weapons/minetorp/torpedo/w0004768.shtml

suggests there is a homing version, which would be bad news indeed, but it must slow to the characteristics of a conventional torpedo to do so.

Sudden leaps of unconventional thought are certainly not limited to Russian engineers, and western and Asian designers can offer many examples of conceptual visualization that stagger the mind. It's a pity, in all those cases, that people could not bend their minds more to aiding one another than destroying one another or seizing a momentary advantage. But therein lies the true beauty of open source information.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
October 09, 2012 14:59
Well, the Shkval is fast, but its range is limited to about 5 miles/11km maximum, so its utility is doubtful at best under modern combat conditions, considering the Mk48 ADCAP has a range of 30 Nautical Miles or about 55km, well you get the idea.

Its very much like taking a knife to a gunfight.

In Response

by: Mark from: Victoria
October 10, 2012 02:28
"... its utility is doubtful at best under modern combat conditions, considering the Mk48 ADCAP has a range of 30 Nautical Miles or about 55km, well you get the idea.

Its very much like taking a knife to a gunfight."

Is that so? Once a technology is established, evolving it is much easier, and the Shkval 2 is said to have a much longer range.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

However, I question whether it needs it. Conventional torpedoes in the Russian inventory are quite capable, and the role of the Shkval is not employment as a conventional torpedo - it is a countermeasure that forces an enemy who has just launched a torpedo itself to maneuver violently and cut its guidance wires in an attempt to avoid. The ADCAP is just like any other torpedo once it begins pinging as it reaches its "enable" point.

http://rwhiston.wordpress.com/2011/10/13/9/

As a submariner I would want to know without a doubt that I was beyond range of the Shkval before I would ignore its release and concentrate on my own torpedo engagement. Could you be that cool, and that sure? The transmission of sound underwater is affected by a lot of anomalies, and the only way to be sure is to ping the target yourself (good luck from 30 miles) or have other antisubmarine assets establish its position for you by dropping active sonobuoys. If the submarine you are looking for is below the layer, again; good luck. All those techniques take time, and you have seconds to make up your mind - do you continue with the engagement, or cut your wire and maneuver to avoid?

And despite what the movies might have told you, submarine-on-submarine engagements that take place at 55 km separation are a dream which depends on an anomalous water environment that might come along once in a decade.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Auckland
October 11, 2012 11:32
Mark, it is easy to see you are FOS.
An increase in range from 11KM to 15KM is marginal.

Also the Shkval suffers from one little problem under the scenario envisaged. While the MK48 is bearing down on you from the close range you envisage, the captain of the Russian sub has to find range and bearing to the target, then turn and launch his super fast but short range "make the enemy evade" unguided torpedo. By which time he is probably dead, better to drop a countermeasure such as a noisemaker and take evading action.

And if there is a guided version that has to slow to the speed of a conventional torpedo that is a waste of time.

And BTW, I am not talking about submarine engagements from "movies" but those from exercises.

In addition, Russian submarines have been found time and again easy to sneak up on by western navies, hell even a Collins class (described by both the US & RN as hideously noisy) are able to manage it, so a LA class or the new RN Astute class should have no problems whatsoever sneaking up on them.

You do also realize that when torpedoes such as the Mk48 reach their enable point they are self guiding don't you? In fact they can be switched to active mode by cutting the cable, this means they are less resistant to countermeasures than when wire guided, but still deadly weapons.

As for sound underwater being affected by anomalies, of course, but the highly trained sonar operators not to mention the computer systems utilized in the sonar systems onboard modern submarines enable them to have a very very good idea of what is going on around the boat for some considerable distance around often to a greater distance than active sonar, also the fact that USN submarines operate as part of a C3 system involving a CBG air wing with Seahawks etc, so you will almost invariably have people dropping sonar buoys and trying to box in the target.

As for being beneath the layer, well you have been watching too many films good sir. The thermal layer causes a shadow zone at certain angles to the listening ship/submarine, but is most certainly not a blanket effect.

In Response

by: Mark from: Victoria
October 11, 2012 23:14
You should call up the USN, Andrew; I'm sure they'd be very interested in your revelations on the propagation of sound in water.

The Shkval does not need to be matched for range and bearing. It only needs to be fired in the approximate right direction. It will be identified immediately by its speed as what it is. It is not intended to actually hit the enemy submarine, merely to present the possibilty that it could. I don't know where you're getting your figures, but no new range was given for the Shkval 2 - just that it would be significantly increased.

The thermal layer does not of course cover the entire ocean like a blanket, and nobody suggested it does. It is also most assuredly much bigger than just submarine-sized - what the hell do you think dipping sonars and towed arrays are for? To get under the layer - why bother if it's only 300 square yards?

It may surprise you to know U.S. submarines on patrol do not typically betray their presence by traveling with a road show of Seahawks flinging sonobuoys everywhere. Who goes along with these helicopters to refuel them? They must have incredible endurance. When they are traveling with a Task Group or squadron underway, indeed antisubmarine warfare is a group effort, but that is the exception for U.S. submarines rather than the rule, and they customarily operate independently - even when traveling with a task group they are frequently far ahead.

I remember a few years ago when a Russian submarine, likely a Victor II, briefly lost depth control while directly underneath the U.S. Carrier KITTY HAWK when it was in the center of its task group. The carrier had to go back to Yokusuka for repairs because the Victor had accidentally left a prop blade sticking in the hull. It somehow managed to get right into the centre of the destroyer and frigate screen and directly under the carrier close enough to touch it. Quite an achievement for something that is so noisy you can hear it from the front row of an Eminem concert. Either that, or all the sonar rates were asleep. Because nobody knew it was there, or ever would have if not for the accident.

The fact remains that the USA was caught trying to steal information on the Shkval more than 20 years after it was operational. If it's like taking a knife to a gunfight, why bother?
In Response

by: William from: Aragon
October 08, 2012 21:37
Good points, Ray - both sides have a well developed "security industry" with both sides dependent on "double-agents" (dating back to the Oleg Penkovsky days). Much of the intelligence information is coming from the same sources.

by: Anonymous
October 11, 2012 03:29
This Soviet-era poster warns citizens to "beware of spies."
The guy on the right: "Vanya, look at my finger"
The guy on the left: "Misha, my love, I want to hug and kiss you"
The American spy in the back: "Darn it, I knew Russia has a 'happy' army".
But honestly, too much subliminal messages on the picture.

About This Blog

The Power Vertical is a blog written especially for Russia wonks and obsessive Kremlin watchers by Brian Whitmore. It covers emerging and developing trends in Russian politics, shining a spotlight on the high-stakes power struggles, machinations, and clashing interests that shape Kremlin policy today. Check out The Power Vertical Facebook page or

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