Saturday, May 26, 2012


Features

Three Years After War, Georgia Looks To Long Term

A Russian border guard patrols at the Verkhny Lars checkpoint on the border between Georgia and Russia in 2010.
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By Robert Coalson
It has been three years since the brief war between Russia and Georgia, and the political stalemate between the two countries remains deadlocked.

With no real negotiations taking place and both sides holding fast to irreconcilable positions -- Moscow has recognized the breakaway Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent countries, while Tbilisi insists they are an integral part of Georgia -- the prospects for movement seem dim.

In the run-up to this week's anniversary, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin speculated that South Ossetia might join Russia. In an interview on August 5, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev was somewhat less direct, but still kept the door open to that possibility.

"There is no legal precondition for this as of now, but we can't tell what the future will bring," Medvedev said. "The situation could develop in any way whatsoever. Looking at it now, I think there are no legal or de facto prerequisites for that to happen."

In the three years since the three-day war that began on August 8, 2008, Russia has consolidated its control over Abkhazia and South Ossetia, moving in thousands of troops in violation of the European Union cease-fire Moscow signed ending the conflict and buying up property and key businesses in the territories. Most recently, Medvedev submitted legislation to the Russian State Duma to form a customs union with both breakaway regions.

Nonetheless, politicians and analysts in Georgia credit the conflict for sobering the political atmosphere in the country, shattering dangerous illusions, and paving the way for a long-term approach that offers at least glimmers of hope.

'No Quick Solution'

Giga Zadania, a professor at Tbilisi's Ilia State University, says Russia's aim in the conflict was not merely focused on the two breakaway regions but on the grander goal of derailing Georgia's overall effort to become a modern, Western, democratic country.

"Russia's aim was basically to completely thwart the Georgian project -- I mean, the recent project of Georgia that consisted in modernizing the country," Zadania says. "If there was a project after 2003 of making out of Georgia a modern, functional country and Russia wanted to thwart that."

He says that goal has not been achieved. In fact, he argues, the war ended the dangerous discussion within Georgia about quick fixes to solve the Abkhazia and South Ossetia disputes once and for all.

"All the more or less responsible political players know there is no quick solution to the problem and they cannot give any promises to the electorate that these problems can be quickly solved," Zadania says.

Likewise, the war and the reaction of the international community in the wake of the conflict disabused Georgians of unrealistic expectations about rapid integration into the West, particularly the idea that NATO membership for Georgia was assured and imminent.

Zadania says the political elite in Georgia now views the Euro-Atlantic integration process as a long-term project that depends largely on Georgia's own political decisions.

WATCH: In an interview aired by Russian television on August 5, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev spoke about the U.S. response to the Russian-Georgian war that erupted three years ago and Tbilisi's alleged "plan for a military gamble":




Irakli Alasania, who was Georgia's ambassador to the United Nations during the 2008 war and now heads the opposition Our Georgia-Free Democrats party, agrees.

"We are viewing the integration process more realistically at this point," Alasania says, "and we understand that a lot of work has to be done on the ground on judiciary, on legislative reforms, on economic reforms, that will bring us closer to the European Union."

Counseling Patience

Batu Kutelia, deputy secretary of Georgia's National Security Council who was deputy defense minister during the August 2008 war, tells RFE/RL that Georgia now is focused on the things it can do for itself. He says the key for the country is to continue its democratic transformation and other reforms without allowing itself to be distracted by "provocations from our enemies."

Batu Kutelia (center, in July 2008 photo), deputy secretary of Georgia's National Security Council, was deputy defense minister during the August 2008 war.
This long-term focus echoes the policy of the United States toward Georgia, which has been labeled "strategic patience."

"The official American position is the frankly bizarre 'strategic patience,' which is resting on the notion that Georgia is moving to become this absolutely democratic nation and that the Abkhaz will just want to be back and be part of Georgia," says Lincoln Mitchell, a Georgia expert at Columbia University in New York who is skeptical of the concept. "OK, that's largely based in fantasy and, kind of, propaganda. But even if you take it at face value, Georgia is sufficiently far away from being there that is a 10 to 20 year proposition at the very, very least."

Despite Mitchell's skepticism, politicians and analysts in Georgia have widely adopted a similar view. Alasania, for one, is adamant that only such a long view can resolve the conflict with the disputed territories and smooth out relations with Russia.

"I believe the most important realization Georgia should gain from what happened three years ago is that the only way to look forward and to move forward is to rebuild ourselves, rebuild our economy, help to get the institutionalized democracy and pluralistic democracy in this country and attract the Abkhaz to talk with us," Alasania says. "Because we have to know the Abkhaz and Ossetians better now -- because they changed [over] 10 years, we changed for 10 years. Abkhazia and Ossetia will not be the same as they were 25 years ago. So we have to understand this approach them from a different angle."

Ballot Box

In the short term, Alasania says, the most important thing for Georgia are free and competitive legislative elections in May 2012, which he expects will give the country a more pluralistic legislature and will move the political debate from the streets to the parliament.

Irakli Alasania was Georgia's UN ambassador during the 2008 war and now heads the opposition Our Georgia-Free Democrats party.
He also views the 2013 presidential election as crucial .There has been widespread speculation in Tbilisi that President Mikheil Saakashvili may try to remain in power by taking over a newly empowered prime minister's post.

Alasania says such a move, which ironically would duplicate that tactic Saakashvili's archrival Putin used to remain in power in 2008, would be detrimental to the development of Georgian democracy.

"We need to make sure that Saakashvili will not Putinize himself, and his legacy that he will leave after leaving office will the first-ever peaceful transfer of power through elections in Georgia for the past 25 years," Alasania warns.

WATCH: In his interview aired on August 5, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev talked about Russia's relations with Georgia and why he spurns its president, Mikheil Saakashvili, three years after the two countries went to war:




Few in Georgia expect or even hope that the dispute with Russia or the status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia will be resolved in the foreseeable future.

Asked about the possible scenarios for these conflicts over the next three years, Georgian Foundation of Strategic and International Studies President Alexander Rondeli repeats the stay-the-course mantra.

"The worst-case scenario is a pro-Russian regime in Tbilisi and Russians controlling the whole South Caucasus," Rondeli says. "And the best-case scenario is just if we stay where we are in developing without Russian interference."
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Comment Sorting
Comments
     
by: AZ from: Arizona, USA
August 07, 2011 13:58
Georgia was the aggressor both times, back in the 90s and again in 08. Saakashvili is as dangerous as Ahmadinejad in Iran and twice as insane. His own people are rioting to get him out and the U.S. should support them in this effort, as the U.S. is supporting the freedom-fighters in Egypt and Libya. The U.S. also needs to recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent countries, as the people have lived there freely for thousands of years and were only annexed into Georgia due to Stalins actions.
Saakashvili needs to be brought up on international charges for his illegal and inhumane actions, as Saddam Hussein was in Iraq. The countries of Abkhazia and South Ossetia are peaceful and only want to be left alone by Georgia.
In Response

by: Mamuka
August 07, 2011 15:26
AZ, (or is it Oz as in the Wizard of Oz), when did the Kremlin open up a news outlet in Arizona :)

I agree that Abkhazia and SO probably want to be left alone by Georgia, but they would also like to be free of Russia as well.
In Response

by: Konstantin from: Los Angeles
September 05, 2011 00:28
1.
You, Mamuka, almost a Century late.
Since Russians in Alaska and San Fransisco,
They kicking their knees on Bundershaft and wait -
Untill their spread-Indian-May-Ham kind of "Falangas",
Multiplied by Cossacks-Monarchists-Trotckiy-Lenin weight
And Khrutchev-Brezhnev aparatchics - craize USA to "Vanda".

Sure all World saw Putin's speach and order - take over World
Media and press in most World languages, several years ago...
Russia is much bigger than Gebbels.
He alone had write stolen from Russian books of "Nikolashka"
whole chapters and pages of "all about nations and tribes on
territory of russian empire" and "all about jews".
Russia has many millions of "Varyazhskie s..i", each of with as
mean as the two books of "Nikolashka", lying to the World
by mass inhale of many...

2.
True Abkhazians (Apsilians and Sinigians in Gudauta region)
mostly left - Adyga-Pechenega from Russia play the "Gauliters"
by order of Russian invaders.
True South Osetians (Christians intermarried with local Georgians
since they were invited by Georgian Kings) mostly live in the rest of
Georgia now - children of raped by Russia (like by Boldyrev's spies)
women play role of Gauliters by order of Russian invaders.
They are spies-slaves of occupying Russia.

As for true Abkhazians (only Gudauta region is their), if they return
And Russia leave along with their Quislings and foreigners -
they would want to be left alone by Georgia no more than anybody,
individual or a family in any country - but people need each other
and unite, if it is called for, and no country can defend itself, being
cut in corridors by invaders.
Same go for South Osetia - except South Osetia was only Georgia
with South Osetian brothers having cultural Authonomy - be free to
interact and travel North to Northern Osetia -
better ask reasonable South Osetin magority that live in other parts of Georgia...




In Response

by: John from: New York City
August 07, 2011 16:00
I completely agree with AZ. I think that Georgia should go on as it is now and forget about lost territories.
In Response

by: zimbru from: Chisinau
August 08, 2011 17:26
....and the US should have given up the Phillipines to the Japanese, the United Kingdom should have given up France to the Germans etc. etc.

Complete nonsense. Georgia, as any country, has a right to its territory. Such rights should only be alienated in the most extreme circumstances, which isn't the case here.
In Response

by: Lasha from: Georgia
August 09, 2011 13:54
That is the most idiotic idea I have read online to date! Perhaps America should give up Texas, New Mexico, California and Arizona back to MEXICO, afterwards return the rest of what's left back to Native Americans! O.O John, you're an ignorant TOOL!
In Response

by: Samuel from: Durbin
August 29, 2011 16:48
Lasha, your comment is in fact idiotic. Abkhazia was not naturally a part of Georgia, it was forced to be so. Please stop pretending you don't know this.
In Response

by: Jeff from: California
August 07, 2011 18:10
The August 2008 conflict was much more complicated than as you have portrayed it. In the two weeks before the war began, South Ossetian forces were launching frequent sniper and mortar attacks on Georgian neighboring villages, killing civilians as well as Georgian police who were legally in the Zone of Conflict as part of the peacekeeping battalion. The increasing of tensions through tit for tat attacks eventually went too far and the war spiraled out of control, with the Georgians launching an all out attempt to take Tskhinvali and cut off the Roki tunnel route.

The Georgians have strong territorial legal claims to both South Ossetia and Abkhazia, including the property and residency of hundreds of thousands of Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) who have been forcefully expelled from their homes by mauraders in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The same legal claims are used by Russia to justify suppressing rebellions in Chechnya, Daghestan and Ingushetia, much more brutally.

Saakashvili has his quirks, no doubt. But Georgia has made huge progress since 2003 on its internal political and economic development. The difference between the chaotic life 2003 and then after Saakashvili came to power, is like night and day and he will clearly receive credit for that. One of his campaign promises was the return both Abkhazia and South Ossetia to Georgian government control. There were less aggressive ways of doing that available to him and I personally believe he should have. But politically, internally, he took a hard position and made an earnest if poorly thought out attempt to do it. The consequences of that had both negative and positive outcomes for Tbilisi.

The day when Georgian residences of the two separatist regions are allowed to return and there will be an election inclusive of all residents, is the day when the US will recognize the political will of ALL the legal residents of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, whether to become independent or to remain united with Georgia. Until that day happens, they will exist in a grey status as tiny backwater regions, only recognized by Moscow.
In Response

by: Misha from: Stockholm
August 12, 2011 19:29
It seems unfortunate that you have been reading pro-Georgian sources to back up your rather odd views. The fact of the matter is that Georgia never had any claims to these lands. They were given these nations' lands after they assisted Russian imperial forces in mass murdering and exiling their inhabitants, which are the native Abkhaz and Ossetian peoples. Stalin, a Georgian, gave the Georgian autonomous republic these lands because he enjoyed vacationing in them. In addition, they both had clear rights under international and Soviet law to cede from the USSR when it broke up. Georgia broke off willingly, while these two nations voted to remain in the USSR and THEN cede themselves. Thus, under these laws, they have NO RIGHT to Abkhazia and Ossetia. They were brutally terrorized by Georgians, in particular the Kartvelians and Mingrelians for decades. Even if you go back in history, please note that the modern day Georgian nation as they portray themselves never existed, and these people were actually recent migrants to the region, having been brought to the Caucasus as slaves from Persian and Greek mixed stock. Please be aware of what you read. The Georgians have no right to anything but their own land and even that is made up of land that was forcibly taken by neighboring states. They are lucky these wronged nations haven't made claims to it.
In Response

by: karl
August 13, 2011 09:04
Some interesting revisionism there, Misha. The Ossetians only came over the Caucasas to the south to flee the Mongols, so that's hardly "thousands of years." And do you have any basis for your fascinating theory about when and where Georgians came from? Or did you just make it up now?
In Response

by: Jeff from: California
August 14, 2011 04:30
@ Misha, actually what you are saying is not true. Abkhazia as an autonomous republic within the territory of the Republica of Georgia an ambiguous status at the break up of the Soviet Union, the same as Chechnya, Tatarstan and Bashkhortostan. As you know, autonomous republics within Russian federation have bi-lateral treaties regulating their status within Russia's assymetrical federal system. However Moscow does not recognize their legal right to independence, as the war in Chechnya is a clear evidence. If that is the case, why would the relationship between Abakhaz autonomous Republic and Tbilisi be any different? It is exactly the same.

The case of South Ossetia is even weaker as during the Soviet period it had autonomous oblast status, rather than autonomous republic status.

Within both the Abkhaz autonomous republic and the South Ossetian autonomous oblast, there were large populations of ethnic Georgians living at the time of the Soviet collapse. In the fighting the followed there were no good guys on any side, crimes were committed by Georgians, Abkhaz, Ossetians, Russians and the various mercenary groups of Armenians, Chechens and others who came to profit from the conflict. At the end of the day, the weak Georgian state proved incapable of protecting its population there and Georgians were ethnically cleansed (partially, not completely in the early 1990s) from both Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

In 2008, when Georgia attempted to restore constitutional authority by force, the remaining civiilian population was ethnically cleansed in a systematic operation. This is well documented by international organizations and there is no credible dispute of that fact.

Misha, your argument seems to be predicated upon the idea that nations should be ruled by titular ethnic majorities and that other nationalities do not have any rights in those countries. This is a clearly absurd position. All the residents of those two territories have a right to return to their homes and the protection of their property rights.

To resolve this issue the Abkhaz and South Ossetian authoriites ought to allow for a free and fair vote in which all residents from the 1990 period have a right to pariticpate. Of course in that case, since the majority populations of both territories were ethnic Georgians now living as internally displaced persons, that will never happen. This explains clearly why the de-facto authorities in Abkhazia and South Ossetia will never allow a return of the Georgian populations nor a truly free and fair vote.

And Misha, I have read quite a bit about the region. But I have also professional experience in the region as well. I would suggest that you biased analysis and learn about the people on the ground. You might be surprised to know that many ethnic Ossetians and Abkhaz live peacefully in Georgia proper without any problems or persecution unlike ethnic Georgians in Sukhumi or Tskhinvali.
In Response

by: Misha from: Stockholm
August 22, 2011 16:07
@Karl: did you find any fault with anything else I wrote or was that the only point you could think to argue? There is plenty of proof of the Ossetians' existence in the Caucasus. Not sure where you got that Mongolian point from. And before you continue with your holier-than-thou attitude in regards to my comments, maybe you can do yourself a favor and research the Georgian "nation"'s origin from ancient texts and books easily accessible via major educational institutions worldwide. I actually stumbled upon all this five years back while doing my dissertation. The truth is out there if you bother to open your eyes and free your mind enough to seek it. I would like to also advise you not to read and trust propaganda from anywhere unless you can carefully verify the sources of this information. This is the responsibility of any sensible reader/truth seeker. Thank you.

@Jeff: I am confused as to your comments, but let me reply. I am not disputing the fact that the Abkhazian land was forcibly placed within Georgian autonomous borders during the USSR. What I am arguing is the legalities surrounding Georgian arguments when it comes to the Abkhaz claims for independence. That's all.
You are wrong about the ethnic cleansing and I already wrote about this above. Feel free to go to the UN's website and look for documentation regarding this. Next, ask yourself this question: how do you think large populations of Georgians living within Abkhazian and Ossetian lands came to be?!!? They are the descendants of mass migration campaigns spearheaded by then Georgian rulers and Stalin himself during the USSR. The plan was to empty the native lands of their peoples and replace them with Georgians, primarily Mingrelians. This is indisputable. If you are aware of the Russo-Caucasian Wars of the 18th and 19th centuries, you will know that the Georgians were an active part of the Russian imperialist assaults on this region. In exchange for their services, the Georgians were granted protection, investments, and land which they helped emptied by attacking these people from the south. Thus, your point about "large groups of Georgians" living in these lands does not warrant any validity here. Before these wars, there were no large groups of Georgians living in these areas. Feel free to look this up.
The Abkhazian government from my understanding does not restrain anyone who involuntary left Abkhazia to return. But their conditions are based on a few simple things: they must be sure that these Georgians who want to return did not participate in any attacks against the Abkhaz (and trust me, there were MANY), must pledge allegiance to the Abkhaz state, must not have criminal backgrounds, etc. These are reasonable and valid concerns that any other nation state in the world has, and I don't understand why it is hard to accept this here as well. Let us see how many Georgians will respect these.
By the way, I base my opinions on living several years in the Caucasus and being active in organizations and groups that cater towards issues concerning this region. Thus, I believe that my opinions are fair and valid and it's unfortunate that you need to demean me because I disagree with you. If you truly knew this region, you'd understand that your whitewashed version of what you think should happen will not go over so well there. Until the Georgian state ceases in its threats and force against these peoples, there can not be a true peace in the Caucasus. The Abkhaz and Ossetians have valid claims and have the right to live free. It's odd that people here think that the Georgians deserve this, but their former long suffering minorities do not. Interesting......

In Response

by: Jeffrey from: California
August 22, 2011 19:24
@Misha,

Are you genuinely predicating your justification for the modern ethnic cleansing of a couple hundred thousand ethnic Georgians on the basis of some notion of collective guilty for historical actions of their ancestors in the 19th and early 20th centuries? If the international community were to apply that as a standard for nation-statehood, we'd end up with hundreds of similar claims throughout the world, based upon completely arbitrary analysises of history. Rather we need to deal with facts rather than conjecture and imagined history. At the time of the end of the Soviet Union there was a constitution, adopted in 1936 and no matter whether one viewed the Soviet regime as legitimate or not, its legal authority was the law of the land and the modalities arranged for the Republics are the accepted basis upon which the dissolution of the Soviet Union occurred and which regulated the relationships between Republic level authorities and those of autnomous Republics and lower level administrative units such as autonomous Oblasts. Hence this is the framwork within which Russia and Georgia relate to their autonomous units.

While the Soviet constitution had written provisions for the independence of Soviet Republics, autonomous entitiities within the republics did not. Hence there was no clear legal path for the secession of those entities such as Chechnya, Tatarstan, Bashkhortostan, Abkhazia or South Ossetia. And yet you state:

"I am not disputing the fact that the Abkhazian land was forcibly placed within Georgian autonomous borders during the USSR. What I am arguing is the legalities surrounding Georgian arguments when it comes to the Abkhaz claims for independence. That's all."

I think you are missing the point. The issue of Abkhazian land being placed within the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic during the Soviet period is essentially moot for the purposes of legal adjudication of its right to self determination. The fact is, it was a legal part of that entity at the end of the Soviet period, according to the Soviet constitution. As it had no legal path to independence and given the large ethnic Georgian population, a national referendum vote to separate including all legal residents of Abkhazia would have likely failed. Thus ejecting the majority of those legal residents from the region was the only path to achieve Abkhaz political objectives.

Georgian nationalism under Zviad Gamsakhurdia was a nasty, brutish variant in the Milosevic type. That the Mkhedrioni and various Georgian gov't sponsored paramilitary groups committed atrocities against civilians, is indisputable. By the same token, the Abkhaz and various Russian gov't and sponsored north Caucasus paramilitaries (Basayev among them) committed terrible crimes against civilians as well.

Let's agree that conflicts such as these ought to be resolved peacefully, along general democratic lines of "one legal resident, one vote" to determine the legal status of the terrority of its people living on it. Only when all the people agree on the principle of the equality of their neighbors current right to life and property, without reference to distant historical events, real or imagined, can we begin to resolve these conflicts. Returning to that principle It is the only way out of the black hole of perpetual non-recognition fir these regions. If they don't do that, then time for them will continue to stand still while their neighbors develop and race to meet better futures.
In Response

by: Anonymous from: USA
August 07, 2011 18:46
They are not countries! They are sovereign territory of Georgia, and most of the world agrees. The UN agrees. Europe agrees. While Saakashvili is no saint, he is not comparable to Ahmediejad. Saakashvili never called for the destruction of another country (including Russia) like Iran has.
In Response

by: Sandy from: Amsterdam
August 12, 2011 19:34
EXCUSE ME, they only "agree" because of political reasons! The US is manipulating Georgia for its own benefit, not because they care about it. This is a standoff with Russia and this is their way of annoying them. Do you honestly think they care? So you are wrong. They are NOT sovereign terrorities, read some history not written by brainwashed Georgian writers! These lands were independent before. Alanians are the descendants of the Sarmatians and Abkhazians were a kingdom when the Georgian nation did not even exist in the Caucasus. Wow...the ignorance of some people never ceases to amaze me.
In Response

by: Anonymous from: USA
August 13, 2011 23:29
@Sandy
EXCUSE YOU, but what benefit does the US have to manipulate Georgia, a tiny, insignificant little country on the other side of the world? Why would the US want to antagonize Russia? (It needs Russian cooperation regarding Afghanistan and Iran) I can think one important reason for Russia to seize Georgia. It involves eliminating Europe's energy independence, and eventually controlling EU foreign policy. In case you didn't know, there are oil pipelines that run through Georgia that bypass the Russian Empire. Regarding the Abkhaz Kingdom: Who cares? Texas was a sovereign country for 9 years, should Mexico invade and then declare it independent? Abkhazia and SO are part of Georgia plain and simple.
In Response

by: Sandy from: Amsterdam
August 22, 2011 16:11
@Anonymous: Just because you say Abkhazia and Ossetia are part of Georgia "plain and simple" does not actually mean that is the case. There are many variables that you either are unaware of or choose to ignore here and I find that disturbing, especially in lieu of this discussion. No, these nations are not Georgian, never felt like they were, and will never feel like they are. You do realize that the United States indeed does have many interests in this region and that my prior opinion is not a strange one? Please google this topic and you will know what I mean. By the way, history plays a huge part in the Caucasus and how it works and my bringing up the Abkhazian kingdom merits a lot here. What it does is to shoot down Georgian claims since antiquity of this land and it sheds light on how the Georgian nation came to possess this land through illegal and manipulative means. Do your research, and tell me what happened after 1920 in this area. You may be surprised (or not) to know how Abkhazia actually came to be forced within Georgian borders. In the end, this is about $$$. But what I do know about this conflict is that the Abkhaz and Ossetians will never accept to be part of such a barbaric, backwards, and ill-ran puppet state again. Why are you against these people enjoying the same freedoms as Georgians, Armenians, Azeris, etc. do? Are you that selective in regards to human rights for some, but not all? What a pity.
In Response

by: Alex from: Indiana
August 07, 2011 21:35
What about 300000 ethnically cleaned Georgian refugees from Abkhazia and South Osetia? Should they be able to go home?
You are obviously oblivious about the history in the Caucasus. It was Stalin who gave Sochi to Russia.
Abkhazia and South Osetia were part of Georgia before the USSR and will be part of Georgia despite Russian propaganda. Venezuela, and Russian bribed Nauru are simply not a force against the civilized world.
In Response

by: Daniel from: Switzerland
August 12, 2011 19:36
So, now it's 300,000? Saakashvili said 500,000, and yet another Georgian politician said 250,000. So, which is it? Do yourself a favor and get your hands on the Abkhazian white book. You will know the truth there. The truth is that most of these so called ethnically cleansed people actually fled the region due to violence brought on by their own people when they decided to invade and murder Abkhazians for asking for more rights from their Georgian masters. The Abkhaz did the right thing and decided to fight back to save their nation from annihilation. This is well documented. The man who threatened genocide against them is now a Georgian official in their government. Gia Karkashvili. Educate yourself!
In Response

by: karl
August 22, 2011 19:40
HRW says 230,000-250,000. Unlike some of the Abkhaz-Ossetian defenders, I'll actually include a link: http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/georgia/georgia953.pdf

My, there are a lot of posters here (or a couple very active ones...) who suddenly seem to know so very much. It would be good if you provided some links besides claiming that all of Georgian history is "fake" and other dodgy arguments.

@Misha: This is a rather debatable assertion: "Next, ask yourself this question: how do you think large populations of Georgians living within Abkhazian and Ossetian lands came to be?!!? They are the descendants of mass migration campaigns spearheaded by then Georgian rulers and Stalin himself during the USSR. The plan was to empty the native lands of their peoples and replace them with Georgians, primarily Mingrelians. This is indisputable. "

Hardly. Why is that obvious, that all those Georgians were recent migrants? Abkhaz politicians were actually given quite a bit of autonomy by Moscow/Tbilisi, so why would they allow that? And of course the migrants who did come, like the Armenians, came after many Muslims fled the Russian invasion for the Ottoman Empire after harsh treatment in the 19th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhajir_%28Caucasus%29
In Response

by: Misha from: Stockholm
August 23, 2011 15:58
I am not justifying any violence towards any innocent people, Karl.I am arguing that those numbers are exaggerated and besides that official link you posted, there are several others from groups like Amnesty/UN sub-organizations that have documentation proving what you say the Abhaz did to Georgians but only opposite too! Interesting, right?? Too,Georgians killed many of their own people who were in Abkhazia. Did they tell you that? Did they tell you too that the Abkhaz were outnumbered, outgunned, & publicly threatened with genocide, and had no other choice but to take up arms and defend? Did you want them to sit in their homes and wait for murder? Would you do that? There was no planned program to systematically kill Georgians, so I don't understand your logic, even the conflict was unwelcome at that time. "Ethnic cleansing" actually should refer to what the Georgians attempted to do to the Abkhaz in the 1990s (do you know G. Karkashivilli?), and what they did to their ancestors alongside the same Russians not even several decades years back. Do you think the UN is still credible? Open your eyes, the Georgians do not respect, care, or want their neighbors around and have proven their hatred by vicious acts of violence. This is evident in how they act and how they treat minorites now in their borders. Just research, you will see Javakheti Your argument about the USSR and claims for independence is confusing. I believe you should read more into this. The only reason Abkhazia was a part of Georgia this time around was because Stalin made it so. You are missing a gap. You say that Abkhazia did not have a right to claim freedom then? So, wouldn't that also extend to several other new nations of today? What's the difference? Where do you think that large "Georgian" population came from? They were placed there to replace the native Abkhaz that the Georgians helped murder and exile to the Middle East. You try to pretend history has no place here, but history explains exactly why the situation is so bad and why things must be changed to restore the natural rights of all natives of their lands. Every nation deserves a homeland. The Abkhaz already have one, and falsifying true history to serve selfish purpose won't help. You talk that Abkhaz/Russia supported the CMPNC? Actually, they did not sponsor them. They were volunteers who share blood ties with Abkhaz, and some just wanted freedom. From your words, it's clear where you get your information from. Again, for your sake, try to read something not written by a Georgian! Where did Georgians get their weapons and data from? Think hard and carefully about that. Next, think about what the Chechens were trying to do then. How do you figure they had Russian support for this? Regarding your last paragraph, which was very confusing to follow by the way:

Abkhazia has laid their claim to their freedom a long time ago. Georgia has their own country (which in my opinion deserves their attention far more than harassing and threatening their neighbors). The only real solution here is that Georgia and others apologize for their actions of the past (but especially Georgia as they have wreaked far more damage to others than vice versa), recognize their neighbors' claims for freedom, and try to work in a regional framework which would seek to strengthen the situations of all parties involved. The one glaring fact that I can determine from your comments is that you are reading very biased information. I urge you to open your mind and look at the other side for once. I did, and that is why I believe what I do now. It is sad to find what I believe to be fairly intelligent people arguing points that have either no basis, can be easily proven, or are pure fabrications/ twisted facts. This is wrong, especially when ascertaining the substance of this conflict. Try abkhazworld.com for once, it won't hurt. I had to cut my words, hope u understand
In Response

by: Wayne from: Rockfort
August 23, 2011 16:02
Mr Karl, that link is under dispute and I find it appalling you are trying to make an educated argument based on Wikipedia! What is being discussed here is valid and indeed, religion was not a reason for this conflict. It was pure imperialism, simple as that. And they are right actually that the Georgians aided in this genocide and deportation of Northwest Caucasian peoples. Why do you think this is objectable? Do you not believe that their actions helped set the floor for the issues that are happening today? When the Georgians helped the Russians expel large populations of people from their native lands, they were emptied. The Georgians (especially Migrelians) took this opportunity and flooded these lands and homes en masse. I have several books that I got from old fellow students written in Europe and Russia itself that prove this. Why is this difficult for you to understand that the Georgians are not honest and have their own motives for wanting to play games in the region and claim land and history that is not theirs? I am a retiree who frequents this site often and even I can understand this from my meager research. You really must be advised to read neutral sources of data. God bless you all.
In Response

by: Karl
August 27, 2011 08:34
Again, refernce to some "old books that tell the truth," but of course cannot be named here, let alone linked to. And I know this is a forum where you can enter any data you like, but "Wayne" from "Rockfort"(?), you are not very convincing. The wikipedia article on the expulsions from the Caucasus is not in dispute, but even if it was, why can you not find something better? All of you great Abkhaz patriots make grand claims, but I have yet to see a single reference to any specific source for these claims, aside from the official Abkhaz government site, ha ha ha. So please, offer something besides denial.
In Response

by: Boris from: London
August 09, 2011 11:58
FSB has a department, that is responsible for internet propaganda. AZ is one of those guys commenting along the Kremlin lines.
They pay a special attention to RFERL, as it had a tremendous impact on former Soviet Union, and contributed to its collapse. It was an only independent news outlet available in the region.
We all know that Russian (FSB) leadership mourns the collapse of the soviet union, and is doing its utmoust to regain influence and resurge in former soviet space.

As of the Abkhazia, what is Abkhazia? Who is Abkhazia? Who is there to make decisions on behalf of Abkhazia? Soviet KGB conducted an ethnic cleansing in Abkhazia in 90s, and deported 80% of the Abkhazian population (mostly ethnic Georgians, though other nations too).
Majority of native population has been expelled. Without them, no decsion (whatever referendums one can conduct) will be legal.
In Response

by: Oleg from City of Prem from: RUSSIA
August 11, 2011 11:00
Who can be sure that you are not comment about the CIA lines?
Cremlin lines.... CIA lines..... I think it is necessary
to analyse different information.
Who begun this war?
Who was a first victims?
Who eat ties after this? (if you saw this video when misha eat his tie)
This only facts.
In Response

by: Kim from: NY
August 22, 2011 16:13
The Abkhaz are the native population of Abkhazia, not Georgians. These Georgians are recent migrants to the region, all a part of a mass immigration program implemented by Georgians and their cronies in the USSR regime. Look it up. Does it even make sense to you that the Abkhaz are not the natives of their own namesake??? Georgians never lived that far north in their entire history, and in fact come from much farther south originally, near the present day Iranian border. They are more closely related to Azeris, Armenians, and Persians than to Abkhaz. This is all very simple historical facts.
In Response

by: Tim from: USA
August 09, 2011 13:59
AZ from "Arizona, USA" is nothing but a propaganda mouth for soviet russia nonsense. RUSSIANS instigated the entire 2008 conflict and are in VIOLATION of cease-fire agreement because they continue to keep COMBAT not PEACEKEEPING troops in South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

The stupid Abkhaz and South Ossetians finally realized last year what type of "help" the russians offered them. Putin and his cronies bought out all the resorts, beach properties, etc. and are not going anywhere nor giving Abkhaz any real help. IT WAS A LANDGRAB and nothing else that was personally orchestrated by that dog face putin.
In Response

by: Oleg from City of Perm from: RUSSIA
August 11, 2011 10:24
First time I listen competent opinion from USA!
I uniquely agree with AZ, U're certainly right. Georgia is aggressor for all time.
Another opinions is result of propaganda.
In Response

by: David from: Los Angeles
August 12, 2011 19:24
Amen to that! This article is terribly biased and it alarmed me that they would insinuate that Russia has "strengthened" its hold on Abkhazia and South Ossetia. If anything, these two countries are FORCED to Russia's arms when the world is being pushed by the US and other factors to not support them in their drive for freedom from Georgian oppression. But, this, of course, is due to their own geopolitical interests in the region. Note how the US has radically changed Georgia's identity after its interference in their affairs up to the Rose Revolution. Their flag, coat of arms, and other markers were changed to suit their tastes. Georgia has never been the nation that it claims to me and it is sadly driven by these lies that it perpetuates on a daily basis. Georgians, maybe you should stop lying to the world about your so called claims on Abkhaz and Alanian land and focus on taking care of your own severe and crippling internal problems before you rush to murder innocents and claim land that was never yours.
In Response

by: Konstantin from: Los Angeles
August 20, 2011 21:10
Russia was the pre-planning aggressor all the times, in all wars!
Sertainly not Georgia! Russians declared it publicly and crowds
Of Russians in all USSR republics danceling joyfully like hors
Since 1954-56 - expand Russia, grabb lands and housings,
Creating in KGB, Spetcnaz and GRU secret "death armies".

Read at least Chronology in: "WorldFreedomAndTruth.info",
Russian resident from Arizona! Ahmadinejad, as you say, fo,
Is "dangerous" and maybe "insane" - (for you fool Americans,
To make them think you are one of them) made by Russians.
Saakashvili is "twice"? Because Russia didn't get all on a go?

What a trick of Russian "zamorochka"! As "prtotest" in Georgia
Organized by Russia among a few old and new pro-Russians,
That had to make it illegal and attacked with clubs police there,
Handled mildly even by US standards - invating USA to rashing
And bomb Georgia? Help Russian Neanderthals repopulate?

What a trick of Russian "zamorochka"! Why "Fredom fighters"?
How does he know that? United Nations is trying limitt killings.
"Muslem Brotherhood" smells like "Union of Russian People"
(all Russians racist brotherhood), not without Chaldean race,
Brits brought and Russia breed, trained and armed breeding.

It is good idea not to interfere against the rebbels - if magority
Genuinly represented by them in a respectfull country, but US
Is simce missguided again, along with NATO by imperiauity
Of 1954 pact (Russia, Bechtel and Quin) of new colonialuity,
Use Afro-Arabo-neo-tech President and USA as horses ass.

At least in matters of new wealth created in those countries,
With benevolance of West, as gift to ending of the Cold War,
Why governments had fall - for the comming new Centuries
Transferring wealth created to new World Hallifat open door
For plander, extermination and slavery lead by the Empires?

Egipt's Dubai - good example of it. Livia - vengance overtone
Toward Kadafi by USA and Britain must not blind judgement
Of real events and future of Livia - will even more evil World
Replace old evil? Public don't know, as spies East and West
Simce betting on their own little stinky expectations, to invest.

Abkhazia and South Osetia was always Georgia! Look same
"WorldFreedomAndTruth.info" pictures - since a 10,000 B.C.,
You lying, Russian Resident! Stalin did opposite - misstake
Of his and Georgian expectations, Authonomy to few seeds,
Minority settlers in Gudauta and Tchinvali - help their needs.

Gudauta polleuted since Lenin by Russia spies and Adyga,
As he polleuted Tchinvali and Java - since 1954-56 Russia
Influxed Adyga and children of raped by them Osetin women.
Still, genuin Abkhazia magority was and is always Georgian.
Still - Tchinvali surrounded by Georgian villages - "AZ lazha"!

"Peacefull co-existance" of expanding Russian annexations?
Like American (plagio too) science-fiction movie - a sucksion
By an evil race of space-worms - sitting in brains Rashkings?
In Response

by: Sandra from: North Carolina
August 22, 2011 15:53
Bravo! Excellent point that Georgian nationalists and apologists forget to mention in their arguments.
In Response

by: Konstantin from: Los Angeles
September 02, 2011 02:45
There is no Georgian "Nationalists" or "Apologists" (as you, Ivan-Sandra,
puit it) unless you trying to label 7 millions Georgians in the World by
your anger tovard few Georgians on internet remaining alive (like me)
that still dare to oposse expanding Russian aggressors.
Yes, I still claim Russians and their agentura are lying!
In Response

by: Konstantin from: Los Angeles
September 04, 2011 18:45
Abkhazia and South Osetia are invaded and controlled by minority
of Russian armies of death, "oboroten's" like Spetcnaz, GRU, KGB,
their foreign "Anychars" like Adyga, Pechenega, Urartu, "Caucasus
Federation" secret Russian terrorist units and alike.
Most of population is from outside of the areas or inslaved.

Russia was always aggressor!
In 12 Century AD Georgian "Iverian" United Kingdom was 12 millions.
(All Europe was 70 millions).
In 12 and 13 Centuries Russia lied to Mongols to atack with a
Million army each time.
Second time all population was murder for joy of treasonous Varaga
Rashka - only about 40,000 Georgians survived.
Russia never stoppped!

Stalin didn't help on this Georgians.
Gudauta region in North "Abkhazia", Sochi and North and
South Osetia were invaded by mad-man Lenin's genocidal army
from Russia.
Most Georgians were killed or cleansed there.

Because Russians still were occupiers in all three places, with
their Adygas, Pechenegas and Cossacks from Russia (Stalin
never had more than advisory role in Russia, magnified by his
intelligence versus ethnic Russian's mediocrity and illiteracy)
Russians annexed Sochi and North Osetia and forced on Georgia
unified Authonomy of already occupied Gudauta and parts of
Georgian ethnographic regions - Gali, Ochamchiri, Suhumi and
Kodori.
All was pre-Georgian for all known history of up to 12 Milleniums:
"WorldFreedomAndTruth.info"

Medvedev and Putin are really mad - but even they pail comparing
with their masters-planners of repopulating the World by Rashkas
and to destroy neibour nations.

They use name of created by Russia to scare you "dangerous...
...Ahmadinejad" to use it in perverted trick-argument:
"I am on your side! I called Ahmadinejah dangerous (tremble Jews)!
It will be good for you, if you will let us kill Saakashvili and his
Georgians to breed there "Bogo-roditca - Russia-roditha"!"

by: Alex from: LA
August 07, 2011 22:01
I do agree with AZ, but only when it comes to South Ossetia, I lived in that country in the early 90's and Abhazians were not peaceful with kicking out Georgians, they did use force, but that's the way of the world. They both should be recognized by countries around the world because if they want freedom by any means war or diplomacy and succeed at kicking out the established gov't then they won it.
In Response

by: David from: Los Angeles
August 22, 2011 16:15
What did you expect them to do? The Georgians invaded after they asked for more rights. You could hardly have had expected them to remain in their homes and await slaughter by Georgian criminals, can you? If anything, that was self-defense. It is an indisputable fact that the Abkhaz did not invade Georgia, but it was the other way around, and many times in history actually.
In Response

by: Konstantin from: Los Angeles
September 02, 2011 03:47
David, as usual, totally ignore the truth - for party line of Russia.

Adyga from Russia used by Russian invaders to usurp territory of
Abkhazia.
Since ancient times Abkhazia was one of the names of a kingdom
in Northern Colhis of Georgia and consisted till present from several
ethnographic groups of West-Georgians.
Only small part in the North, Gudauta region, was influxed by Russia
during Lenin, Khrutchev and Brezhnev with Aduga, Cossacks, KGB,
Russian armies and death battalions.

All Abkhazia regions had elections, but guarded by KGB Ardzinba from
Gudauta (1/6 of territory and population of Abkhazia) unleashed
genocide against magority, supported by invading Rusian armies,
calling his Adygas Psy, or Abkhazians.

It is Georgians that had to defend their "rights", homes and very lifes!
It is Adyga, Urartu and other Russian battalion of death that invaded
as criminals, murdering some 40 thousands civilians, by whole
families!

"Many times in history" - yes:
Cossacks and Lakoba, by order of Lenin, genocide against Georgians
in Sochi, North Abkhazia and Ocetia;
The same and in the rest of Georgia in 1937 - genocide against
Georgians;
The same and all over USSR in 1955 - 150,000 Georgians killed;
The same prepared all over USSR since 1954-56 against
non-Russian nations, starting against Georgia, ritual killings of
Georgian children and killings of Georgian police officers in
South Ocetia and North Abkhazia;
Unleashing genocide against Georgians in 1991-92 in Abkhazia,
supported by invading Russian armies, GRU and Spetcnaz, lead
by the "Third Force".
It is who invaded Georgian Abkhazia!

Is it David Morozov, Russian Gauliter of Osetia?
"What did you expect" him to do?


In Response

by: Konstantin from: Los Angeles
September 02, 2011 02:55
Alex, you can dissagree with lies about Abkhazia, because you was there and know that Georgian magority won in all ethnographic regions of Abkhazia,
except 1/6 part in the North, Gudauta region - staffed by Rusian occupiers's
armies, spies and brought since Lenin and Khrutchev Adygas from Russia.
They indeed invaded with Russian armies and cleansed Georgian magority.

Alex, you cannot agree with lies about South Osetia just because you wasn't there at the time - just say that you do not know.

by: David Bigsbe from: Michigan
August 08, 2011 04:34
America seems to stand with Saakashvili for all the wrong reasons. Now the question is not if these new states will rejoin Georgia by force but whether they'll be eaten up by Putin. America would be wise to recognize these new states and help them keep out Russia. What's so important about Georiga for America? Once again, my governments foreign policy is acting with out a head on it's shoulders.
In Response

by: Andrew from: Tbilisi
August 08, 2011 10:31
Not big on geography are you David.

The reason Russia wants to dominate Georgia and the south Caucasus is so they can block access through non Russian territory to Europe from Central Asia and dominate those countries too.

With a Russian stranglehold on trade and communications in the South Caucasus, millions of people would be condemned to suffer once again the hell of Russian imperialism
In Response

by: Taxpayer from: USA
August 09, 2011 03:31

The only thing that is worse than the hell of the Russian Imperialism is the Georgian Imperialism!

Free Svanetia! Free Javakhetia! Free Adjara! Free Kvamo Kartli!

Dawn with Kakhetian nationalists!!
In Response

by: Rasto from: currently from Tbilisi
August 09, 2011 05:08
Hi Andrew (sometims from Auckland) are you in Tbilisi (currently) for some longer period ?

by: Eugenio from: Vienna
August 08, 2011 15:24
Thanks god, Georgia has good friends - the United States, a country that always supports its friends, exactly the way it did with Georgia in 2008 :-)).
In Response

by: Anonymous from: USA
August 09, 2011 03:10
US intelligence agencies warned the Saakashvili government not to antagonize Russia...they did anyway...so, yeah Georgia is our friend, but friendship has its limits.
In Response

by: Taxpayer from: USa
August 09, 2011 03:37
With the bankrupt friends like the United States... who needs enemies?

Keep sending us your Mukuzani though - I love to pay for this fine wine with my worthless $$-;)))
In Response

by: Eugenio from: Vienna
August 09, 2011 15:53
Saperavi is another good brand you might want to try :-))

by: potgeo from: Mars
August 09, 2011 23:06
Unfortunately there are no friends in politics, only interests. Geopolitical factor for Georgia is both - blessing and curse at the same time, in our case foes and friends have the same interest - to use this factor for their strategic advantage,location location, location... One does it with whip, the other with honey cookies, but in both cases we always lose. Russia has an ambition to
reincarnate Great Russian Empire or at least "old-new" USSR, for that it
will devour anything in its way including so called "independent Afkhazia" and "South Osetia." I don't think that even in Russia anyone believes in
"independence" and "sovereignty" of these break-away regions.
In Response

by: David from: Los Angeles
August 22, 2011 16:18
You would know about fake nations and imperialist holds on them now, wouldn't you? Take a long hard look in the mirror before you say such ridiculous things. Abkhazia and Ossetia are being forced to deal with Russia right now because of Georgia. If Georgia would do the right thing, RECOGNIZE these two nations as valid states (and by the way, they fulfill every criteria necessary for this), and stop threatening them with war and genocide, then they can be open for foreign contacts and investments apart from Russia. Don't you agree? Your argument that they are Russian minions does not make any sense here. In fact, your country is forcing this situation to happen. You should be ashamed of yourself for depriving these nations from better lives because of your own selfish war campaigns.

by: Alex from: LA
August 10, 2011 08:28
South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Armenia are all Russian-colonies. Thats the truth.
In Response

by: LG from: US
August 12, 2011 20:47
And georgia is so independent and not a lackey of the West right?
In Response

by: Konstantin from: Los angeles
August 26, 2011 23:14
1.
South Osetia and Abkhazia are worse than colonies,
wictims of differenf stage comedy of genocide and annexation,
but the genuin population of the both had not much word in it.

Gauliters and a snitch or two for each Russian death battalion in South
Osetia are children of raped by Russian spies victims, trained in
special scools as slaves of Russia, with few degenerates added.
In addition to Osetins invated by Georgians and settled in Tchinvali by Georgian Kings, there are some squashed into Tchinvali and Java, as disfranchised since Lenin and Khrutchev refugees, pushed there
by Russian repopulators from Northern Osetia and Russia -
falsly represented by Russian spies - children of rape.
Beside many Osetins in small Georgia and Georgian refugees,
about a million in country of 4.5 millions, is too much.
Hospitality of Georgia already streched to malenutrition.
People in Tchinvaly are hostages of Russia - they have no way
to go anymore...

In Abkhazia most of population was ethnic Georgians of different
local groups - only Gudauta region claimed to be "Abkhazians",
after Lenin invaded with Cossacvks and Adygas the Sochi and
Gudauta regions with genocide agains Georgians.
Since 1954-56 Russians reinforce Gudauta influx by Adyga,
Cossacks and Russian armies of death - subduing locals
and forceing them into genocidal skeems.
Gudauta Gauliter Ardzinba and his clan were constantly under
guard by Russian GRU, Spetcnaz and KGB...

2.
Since 1954-56 Russia, Britain and Bechtel, later also Austria and
Germany had a secret pact to restore their colonial empires.
Smaller nations were told they would be obliterated forever,
if they wouldn't play the game.
Serbian Special forces were told to train with Russians in Britain
and Germany - learn to mortify invaded by them populations and
to look bad enough - whiten Germany for WW2 crimes.
Serbia is dismembered,
Ugoslavia and Eastern Europe in process be colonized by
Germano-Austria.
Serbians tried as nazis, like Milosovich that for attempts
to explain the truth behind it was murdered by "Lemurs" with
permission of "International" courts - to silence him.

Many nations blackmailed to follow the gaim - even USA!
Georgia is a small country, even it is forfather of Caucasian race
and Human Civilization...
To what degree it is forced to play the game of Imperial resurectors?

One thing if for sure - they have no choice one way or another -
Russia planned in open to murder a third, to send to death camps
another third and put the best third in few "Treblinka" type
camps - stink at them with nerve gas "Cheremushka" to destroy
geneticly the "Lions with Human Hearts" - to make the best of them
croll on knees before Russian and Prussian rulling race of Russia,
entusiasticly and fearfully create and be plagiarised-usurped by
Russian "masters" - would be World conquerors
and desecrators of Heaven and Earth...
Russia is still doing it with some success...
Still, Georgia is independent...

by: Konstantin from: Los angeles
August 16, 2011 08:38
There are only three choices:

1. To stay on principals that Georgian and (Ibero-Caucasians at large)
must be liberated from Russian occupation, if make favor to Russia
and respect place of Russia and ballance of powers in the World:
a). Russia must agree for Georgian "Iveria" wiuth Regional
Common Wealth of Caucasus Independent States and
Authonomies;
b). Russia must withdraw military, paramilitary, spy agencies,
local recrouted Quislings and slaves of Russia, including
raped by Rusians local women and their children, be tried for
agression and crimes against Humanity and repare the
damage - WITH FULL PUBLIC RECOGNITION AND GOOD
WILL FROM RUSSIAN SIDE TO MAKE IT WORK;
c). RUSSIA MUST USE the same GOOD WILL to other nations
in Eastern Europe and Asia and their potential regional
Common Wealthes.

2. If Russia will not accept it fully, to workable degree, continuing use
blackmail with usurped from CIS and USSR its military and economic
potential, continuing the road to expanding and breeding-out Russia -
CIS and Eastern Europe would have to change its approach to the
ballance of power in the World as well.
There is enough Einshteins and Kartvelies in the World, even in
Eastern Europe and Central Asia, to prepare Civilized World for
standing up to principals against Imperial Resurectors and their
Russian forward-invading force - cleaning Word's eyes from proxies
take-over-brainwash and giving to Word minimum necessary tools.

3. The next choice is not accaptable.
Since Varaga (9 Century AD), or Russian Bolshevik Revolution
(1917) Russia always expand, lying and violating all aggreements.
All nations arround Russian borders lose territories and houses
to breeding Russians. If one stop Russians - they revange for
fighting against Russians with further expansion. If one do not
resist, Russia grabb even more for not resisting Russia - saying
that their victims love Russia and recognize their inferriority before
the Great Neanderthal, "Velikorusskiy Varaga".

I will continue next time - your lying comments are like spit into face
of everything good in Heaven and on Earth!
It fills me with Holly Rage!


In Response

by: David from: Los Angeles
August 22, 2011 16:19
Konstantin, why do you keep refusing to meet? And do you even have a job? It seems that you are all over the place on these articles always. Don't you have anything better to do than spout bad poems in bad English?
In Response

by: Konstantin from: Los Angeles
August 22, 2011 21:40
Why would the last truthfull forum writer want to meet
an impudently lying Russian agent-provocateur, David?
I also think I know who you are, coached by another
Russian agent-provocateur Luhes and Russians,
spectrum of Arsenic-Polonium poisoners, with
armies of telepaths-psychologs:

"Russian insult-infarkt-urologs,
West hired as Lemurs-psychologs,
CIA and Gelena Froydologs-Penisologs,
Greedily plagiarize for Russia-silencologs."
In Response

by: David from: Los Angeles
August 23, 2011 15:25
Did you just write me a poem? And called me a Russian agent???
In Response

by: David from: Los Angeles
August 23, 2011 21:37
I take it you despise Russians? I'm actually not a Russian, by the way. I still find your comment racist and offensive though. Shame on you.
In Response

by: Konstantin from: Los Angeles
August 25, 2011 22:35
I do not write poems, thought a Russian might see
even "obnyavshi tcarstvennuyu..." as a poem (an American too).
Enemy agens can be arrested - agent-provocateur not,
Specially if Her Magesty tight arrount USA throat a Russian knott.
If one did something evil and I oppose it in prose, it is long.
If I rime few words it is shorter and give some sence of
closure to overwelming indignation - thought, it depends on
how easy it flows from a big head, which owerflows...

Dispise I all evil and abomination? Yes - not necessary innocent,
even of Russian extraction.
Unlike you (that like umbushing Ilia Chavchavadze Russian snitch,
code name Dzagoev-Dzaglioev), your hate to nations which you
ambush for extermination by Russian animals is bordering with
criminal assult - as it probably is - trying to close last voice?
Racist are you and probably an active one to be!

I hope you can feel shame - that might save your soul!
You are Russian, rephrasing Adam Mitckevich:
"You are Russian not by blood that running in your veins,
but by blood that you help Russia (and maybe eved do)
run form veins of other nations!"


by: Vladimir from: Boston
August 27, 2011 19:42
I am originally from Russia, and Russian is my native language, so I should understand Konstantin's way of thinking. But I can't. I am unable to translate his texts back into Russian. He is vicious, helplessly illiterate in any language, and pretentious. I cannot even understand whether he supports or denies views expressed in the discussed article. It's a pity some maniacs, derailed people intrude into discussions like this one with spam.

I wish paricipants of this discussion take into consideration that only 17 percent of Abkhazian population declared themselves as 'Abkhazians' in polls both in the 20s and the 90s. Whose is the land they live on now? Can one find any traces of their independent history, original churches of their own, unique language, culture, literature etc.? There are no such traces! All inscriptions in all medieval churches on the territory of Abkhazia are written in Georgian language, and their written language was artificially created by Gulia, a Bolshevik-inspired Mengrel poet, in recent times.
Abkhazians have always constituted a small minority within the Georgian population. They (and Ossetians) eagerly supported Russian imperial, colonial authrities against their rivals, the predominent native Georgian population, they heartily cooperated with Lenin's Bolsheviks trying to destroy independent Georgian government after 1917, and they always have been used by Russia, according to the 'divide and rule' policy of Russia.
Reading some of these comments one may come to the idea that Abkhazia is a great independent nation with a glorious past and a bright future while Georgians are an insignificant ethnic group compared to them. What an aberration!
Go and see flourishing Georgia today, a democratic country free of corruption, with a great history and fantastic culture, and then visit Abkhazia, a poor, wretched Russian colony now where the property of its former Georgian dwellers is illegally confiscated and their return to their homes, to the land when they always were THE majority, to their homeland, is denied!
So, this small group,17 percent of the population, being provoked, instigated and armed by the strong and aggressive neighbor, led by Russia's armed forces, overtook power... and proclaimed independence? The world would accept that.
In Response

by: Manuel from: Seville
August 28, 2011 08:20
Vladimir, with all due respect, your statistics and facts are wrong. Abkhaz are not 17 percent, second their numbers were lower than Georgians because as someone mentioned here the majority of their peoples were murdered and exiled by Russians and Georgians in the Russo-Caucasian Wars. This is why you will find over a million if not more native Abkhaz in Turkey, Middle East, and more. So that should answer your question. After those people were deported, not long ago history wise, Georgians engaged in a massive campaign to depopulate their lands and substitute them instead with their own people. That is why these "refugees" (who in reality left Abkhazia on their own accord when their fellow Georgians crossed the Abkhazian border to start massacres) became a majority in Abkhazia and claimed their lands. Abkhazia was not a part of Georgia historically before, except only with military and other political situations which suited both parties. In fact, if you know your know, you will know that such relationships were common in the Caucasus in the past. You are wrong by the way about the language, the language was actually created for the Abkhazians, not Georgians. The "Georgian" nation was not even in existence when the Abkhaz ruled as a kingdom, it was only in AD period that they became known in Transcaucasus and established ties with other fellow Persian speaking peoples like Armenians and such. You are wrong as well as cooperation with Communists, not all of them did this, and this is something that happened to all nations: some supported Lenin, some did not. It's interesting that you as a Russian do not know this.

Georgia is indeed not "flourishing" as you claim. It ranks quite low in several critical factors: bad economy, low respect for minorities, constant abuse of human rights, neglect for refugees, families, women, children (which can be seen by alarmingly high rates of hunger, malnutrition, and infections), and so on. I laughed when I read your part about it being free of corruption. You do understand how their president's salary gets paid, do you not?
It's obvious you have an agenda with this poorly constructed argument, and I must say that we here in Europe tend to be more understanding about this conflict because we are more aware of the region's history. We know what you are trying to claim, as other Georgian sympathisers here, is not true.

Good day
In Response

by: Konstantin from: Los Angeles
September 02, 2011 20:52
Manuel from Sevile?
It looks more like "Sevil'skiy tcirul'nik" (hear stylist from Sevile - Rus."
in reverse "leu nam" (filling up vodka for us - Rus.) - a too cleaver
code name for an everage Russian...

Vladimir is right on this one - BUT HE IS WRONG ON EVERYTHING
ABOUT ME, STARTING WITH ARROGANCE OF MENTORING ME
FOR RUSSIA:

1.
Give or take 17%, maybe 20% of so called Abkhazians, probably much
less, deepending who is listed as Abkhazian.
Most of that 17-20% were expelled from Abkhazia or killed in 1992-93
and later for being not true "Abkhazians".
Only quarter of 17-20% are still in "Abkhazia" - "the true Psy"!
Who are they?
Tribe of "Gad" and "Pechenegi" that accompanied invading since
Lenin and Khrutchev Russian and Cossacs genocidal armies,
like Lakoba and his Adygas.
They clensed even "Abkhasians", since 1992 Russian invasion,
selecting only "-Psh" (like Bagapsh), or "Ba"-"Ab" (like Ardzinba,
Ashba, Lacoba, Leiba...) - all invaders from South Russia!

Georgians were never expelling "Abkhazians", even Russians
were not allowed by Georgian advisors to do it within "Abkhazia".
According to agreements between Georgian King and his Nehew,
Peter the Great, territory of Georgia recognized even larger than
its official borders and Northern Caucasus had to be free with
Georgia as warantor and Russia had to recognize that (not
withstanding pampass Russian translation of the agreement).
Only involvment of Russia was allowed - remove military bases
of Foreign Muslim Powers that were raiding borders of Georgia,
Ukraine and Russia.
During known history Russia betrayed Georgia and Caucasus,
it is why Caucasian War dragged by Russia 50 years - instead of
just removing foreign bases, Russia was annexing land of nations
and nationalities in Northern Caucasus.
They also expelled foreign armies and Mudgehedins, but Georgians,
already betrayed and invaded by Russia, demanded independence
and rights of North Caucasians, according to aggremens.
They let all that attacked Georgia, but were stopped by Kazbegi, go to
foreign countries or return home, as they did.
They convinced Russians to let in North Abkhazia locals to decide who
of invaders didn't commit crimes against humanity and they wanted them
to stay there, as they did.
The rest of Abkhazia was populated by ethnographic groups of Georgians,
and it is Georgia - even Gudauta and Sohi was Georgia - but Russians
cleansing it by crimes!
It was more difficult to convince Russians to do the same in North-West
Caucasus, not only because of Russian treachery and arrogant expansion,
but also because the space arround Adygeya and Sochi was staffed by
some of largest military bases of Muslim World and multitudes of
Mudgehedins, some of which intermarried and claimed some local
roots.
It is where from coming your "over a million" descandents of refugees
(not even from Abkhazia) that incouraged since Khrutchev get as many
as they can listed for expanding nazi Russia and to pin it on Georgia.
That answers the question that nowbody even asked you, "Manuel".

(will continue)
In Response

by: Konstantin from: Los Angeles
September 03, 2011 22:08
(continuation)

2.
"After those people were deported" - only some foreign war criminals,
only from Gudauta region of Abkhazia were deported by agreement with
local "Abkhazian" population, already some being mixed with foreigners.
The rest of Abkhazia always belonged and was populated by ethnografic groups of Georgians - Svanetia, Lazika, Mengrelia and mixed Georgians
in Suhumi and Suhumi region.
Even Apsilia (Gudauta region) and Sinigia (between Gudauta region
and Suhumi Sea shore) were substantially populated by Georgians
and even originally were Iberian villages mixed with local Cro-Magnons.

Because of constant bestial raids of Adygas and Pechenegas that
used presence of foreign military bases of Muslim armies, Georgian
population was declining, and so were real Apsilians and Sinigians.
(By the way, Ottomans often were against such raids)

After the liberation (and deportation of some Adyga and Pechenega war
criminals) all ethnography of "Abkhazia" returned to normal numbers.
Georgia never repopulated their lands - it was Georgia, known under
diferent names for up to 12 Milleniums!

The were specialists that irrigated Kolhida and helped build Suhumi
and industries from other parts of Georgia too, most of them
intermarried with local Georgians and Apsilo-Sinigians in 1930-th
and later.
Naturally, Svanians and Mengrelians intermarried with their own even
more in both Svanetias and Mengrelias, including parts that artificially
included into Autonomy of "Abkhazia".

"That is why these "refugees" (???)" -
Are you talking about deported once by Russians foreign armies,
from Adygeya and Novorossiysk desert, that Russians trying to
recrout now as supporters of their lies against Georgia and CIS?
I saw one, recrouted by Russian KGB, marriet to a Russian
Cossack women and brought to live in Suhumi in 1970-th.
He was a big Turk with face of Greco-Macedonian bandit...
He hated any Georgian he saw and threatened kill them all,
wnen Rusians and Adygas would invade Georgia.

Or do you mean 1992, when Russian "Third Force" armies of death,
including KGB, Spetcnaz, GRU, Adyga, Pechenega and Urartu
invaded and infiltrated in advance Abkhazia and started genocide
against Georgians?
Bestial genocide that lead Georgian magority to defend itself with
help of not experienced home guard?
It was genocide against Georgians, lying Russian!
It is Georgian magority that was murdered or expelled and claims
its land and houses, burned or repopulated by Russian occupiers
and their Cosacka-Adyga-Pechenega-Urartu helpers!

3.
look at: "WorldFreedomAndTruth.info" -
Georgians under many names, since 9 millenium BC,
are already there!
Where are Adyga and Pechenega, or even Abkhazia?

(will continue)
In Response

by: Konstantin from: Los Angeles
September 02, 2011 05:11
Is Vladimir originally from Russia?
probably from one of Russian influxed former USSR republics,
like Moldova, of mixed extraction, cleaver enough insult me and set a trup:
HE IS PLAGIARIZING TRUTH, WHILE INSULTING ORIGINAL AUTHOR!
"Veyvele", is it you "bratushka"?

I wrote a lot since 1980 to United Nations and World governments,
and much more since 1990-th on Internet, laying foundations of
transformation of USSR into CIS and following on building it, while
fighting with power of truth against expanding, aggressive Russia
and improving my fresh English.

Entities that Vladimir represents read all I wrote and know who I am.
Their arrogance of insulting-invading at some point, usurping shorter
antre from my writing and puting their names on it - looks here same
plagiarist Russia and USSR Babilon's Quislings that grabb monopoly
on truth at the right moment.
Is it another faze of "Termidors"?
Did Russia rearmed and ready to grabb all as new Soviet Babilon?

Vladimir repeiting my truth as shorter antre, probably approved by
resurectors of Bolshevic Empire - with some truth alloowed - get back
non-Russian republics - to replace stricly Russian Empire.
Is it so, "Veyvele"?

Are your generals finally agreed wityh me that non-Russian potential
needed to survive Russia - only without respect to us?

Are your generals ordered to insult me to prevent me have any priority
on fight of my life and usurp it?

Than, how your generals think it changes anything?
Your Russia plagiarizing me since childehood, what is new?
Why would we agree be intellectual slaves of your Russia now?

PS:
You can't "understand my way of thinking", "veyvele", you never did!

You can't "translate it back into Russian" because I write strait in
American English, creatively advanced by me as it called for and
makes it shorter - it is you that think in Russian Party Line and
translate it into English by snobism of soviet Russian bibliographs!

You can't mentor me, as you did to all non-Russians in USSR and
tried it in on me too!

Vicious are you and your partners, "Veyvele", arround my apartment
Building - telepaths of Russian and Bolshevic tirrany from schools
and Universities they assembled arround me in USSR, that always
provoking me to add a rude word to my lines, using all tools of USA
government agencies in their hands, lying and turning it on me!

I am more literate in languages I use that your kind, "Veyvele"!
And I have no time for English literary scruples - I am fighting
alone since 1947-56...

I can imagine how peretentous you are, settling in Boston,
pretending to be "one of them" payed from Intellectual Property,
stolen from me by you and your partners for Russia - for bribing USA
and making the Quin your benevelent patron, lying to her,
while I and people like me are dying pain amplifiers,
insulted by you and your kind.

You do understand why you try "deraile" real creators, calling them
"maniacs" that dare to derail Russian and Bolshevik expansion,
while plagiarizing their writings too!
You are the plagiarist spam!
You literate only in Party Line of allience of Russian nazis, Bolshevics
and accompaning Babilon of USSR Quislings - the World Empire
to expand!

Everybody who read my writing know where I stand!
AND YOUR COMMENTS ON GEORGIA ARE RIGHT, THOUGHT
SHORTENED BITS OF MY WRITINGS AND KNOWN AT THE TIME
USSR HISTORY BOOKS, BEFORE KHRUTCHEV BURNED THEM.

by: eric d from: IF Idaho USA
August 27, 2011 23:17
Just a quick question: If the Abkhaz & Ossetians are the "original, indigenous" etc. inhabitants of "Georgia" & the "Georgians" are Russian imports... Why is Russia now supporting the Abkhaz & Ossetes & deporting the Georgians? Answer: Because the Russians will support whoever & whatever is in "Great Russian" ("imperialist") interests in destabilizing the North Caucasus & keeping Russian (FSB) hegemony over the region. And so the Russians rely on the same old "divide & rule" strategy in Georgia that they're using in Chechnya, Ingushetsia & etc. That is, keep the ethnic population(s) fighting each other & behind the scenes, secretly promote the rule of terror...

So what's the point in bickering & squablling over who's doing what to who? (That's Lenin's question:" Who whom?...") when all these tribal wars & ethnic cleansings between Chechens & Ingush & Ossetes & Abkhaz & Georgians etc. only serve the Putin regime & the FSB's interests in destabilizing the North Caucasus & ruling by terror? I really appreciate the dialog & debate, here; but the name-calling & hate-mongering serves no purpose. Why don't all you guys get wise & stop arguing about old battles & start learning from each other & figure out who's really behind "The Un-Holy Mess" of the North Caucasus? (If not "Great Russia," as always...).

For example: @Jeffrey: I'd really like to see some documentation & references on your statement about "Russian sponsored terrorism" in the North Caucasus. Because without Anna Politkovskaya & Natalya Estimirova & RFERL, it's difficult to keep up on the "Who Whom? in the North Caucasus"...
In Response

by: David from: Los Angeles
August 28, 2011 08:22
You are right, but in the end, this land and this history, culture, etc. are the only things these poor people have left. It is their right to stake their claims to it and neither Georgian propaganda/lies nor Russian games to establish their role as top dog there will undermine this. The real problem in this equation is both Georgia and Russia combined. Let's not forget they still have ties and work together mutually on several related issues till now, despite their public animosity towards one another. Georgia was a vassel of Russia's for more than three centuries, that sort of relationship is not easily forgotten or neglected. And let's not forget how Russia supplied the Georgians with intel, weapons, and other means of support when they invaded Abkhazia illegally in the 1990s.
In Response

by: eric d from: IF Idaho USA
August 30, 2011 21:59
@David: Thanks for the support. But I really don't see the collaboration between Georgia & Russia at this point (3 years after the Georgia/Russia War). The only Georgians collaborating with Russia right now, I guess, are Burjanadze & the Georgian opposition party... And if the Georgians (by which I guess we mean Sakaasvilii et al?) collaborated in the past (against the Abkhaz, Ossetes etc.) which probably they did, doesn't that just prove ...It's not a matter of nationality ethnicity tribe etc. but who does what to whom, whether Georgian Abkhaz Ossete etc.. And the real problem is that all these competing nationalities ethnicities tribes etc. have to coexist on turf each claims & there's really not enough turf to go around. So sooner or later, there's really no alternative except to co-exist (or else just go on trying to exterminate each other. Which doesn't solve anything...). And the real barrier to co-existence, at this point, as I see it (I could be wrong...), is Russian attempts to destablize the N. Caucausus by the old divide & rule rule & to rule by terror over the divided people. And that won't end until Georgians Abklhaz & Ossetes (& Chechen & Inguish etc.) put aside their tribal feuds & ethnic wars & recognize their common enemy (e.g. Russia) & establish a free North Caucasus for each other. (And after that, they'd have to co-exist with the Russians, too. But that's for the future...)

By analogy.. What allowed Western Europeans to dominate the North American continent was the same old Roman "divide & conquer" strategy that set the Native Americas against each other & resulted in wholesale extermination & land grabs etc. And the only way, now, that Native Americans will achieve equality in the contemporary US of A is when there's a Pan-Native American movement capable of electing candidates & winning court battles & establishing political economic & legal equality with the dominant majority. But, currently, the divide & rule rule still seems to be working (as, for exmple, in the Navajo/Hopi triobal land disputes...). And Native Americans settle for casinos & reservations instead of working for equal rights...And that just keeps them down...

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